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Thread: Welsh and DF21

  1. #1
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    Welsh and DF21

    So, according to a member here, whom seems much more knowledgeable about these things and I, my Y line matches closest to some Irish surnames such as Sullivan, Driscoll and McCarthy. I see some of these matches at 25 markers when I look on FTDNA, but at 67 markers I get matches with surnames of Baty, Griffith and Reece, semingly Welsh.

    Now I know that there was some settling of the Irish into Wales, would that be the reason for these matches at 67 markers?

    I was generously given matches of the aforementioned Irish names on an Exel sheet; with matches of low 20s for genetic distances and apparently the DF21 Scottish clusters into genetic distance of 30s, I believe this is for 111 markers.

    How does this translate when it comes FTDNA matches of 6 and 7 at 67 markers? Am I closer to Welsh or Irish looking at these two pieces of information.

    It has been very difficult for me to connect my dots for all of my ancestors came to the States from Northern Germany or Scandinavia.


    As always, thank you for any help.

    Christian Wright (Reith)
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    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  2. #2
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    I noticed your Reece and Griffith matches a long time ago, but did not talk about them on any public forum because they are your private information. Now that you have brought them up, though, we're free to discuss them.

    Reece (Rhys is the Welsh original, probably from ap Rhys, "son of Rhys") is 6 away from you at 67 markers, Baty is also 6 away, and Griffith is 7 away. Those are pretty close.

    Reece and Griffith are definitely Welsh surnames. Baty is supposed to be of Scottish and northern English derivation, as far as I can tell. One source says that surname comes from Yorkshire and from Carlisle in Cumbria. Of course, the latter is one of the places where the British held out the longest against the Anglo-Saxons.

    You have a couple of more Reeces who appear at 37 markers and who have only tested to 37 markers; they would probably hold up at 67 markers, as well.

    Your Irish neighbor (O'Sullivan) is two away at 25 markers. Since he has 111 markers tested but disappears from your radar at 37 markers, I think you can safely dismiss that one.

    Your three closest matches, Baty, Griffith, and Reece, are Welsh, in the case of Griffith and Reece, and, in the case of Baty, possibly Cumbrian, which is really just the northern version of Welsh (Cumbria has the same root as Cymru, i.e., "Wales").

    So, it looks to me like your y-dna ancestry is British, by which I mean Briton.

    Griffith has 111 markers but does not show up as a 111-marker match for you. It would be interesting to see how Baty and the Reeces hold up at 111 markers if they would upgrade.

    BTW, I don't think there is anything particularly Irish about DF21, although it is common there. DF21 was probably widespread throughout the Isles. Recall the Hinxton Celt from about AD 1 who was DF25+. He was recovered from Cambridgeshire in what is now SE England.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

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    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  4. #3
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    Thank you my friend. I was just a little curious from what Oneillbabu said about the Irish matches, yet on FTDNA looked closer to Welsh/Briton.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post





    BTW, I don't think there is anything particularly Irish about DF21, although it is common there. DF21 was probably widespread throughout the Isles. Recall the Hinxton Celt from about AD 1 who was DF25+. He was recovered from Cambridgeshire in what is now SE England.
    Not particularly Irish, here is a quick breakdown of the 155 S5488 people currently in the DF21 project

    Irish 56%, Scottish 16%, Welsh 8%. English 4%, unknown and European 16%

    Irish and Scottish Gaels combined represent 72% and the Welsh and English combined represent 12%

    Were back to the tail wagging the dog I see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    So, according to a member here, whom seems much more knowledgeable about these things and I, my Y line matches closest to some Irish surnames such as Sullivan, Driscoll and McCarthy. I see some of these matches at 25 markers when I look on FTDNA, but at 67 markers I get matches with surnames of Baty, Griffith and Reece, semingly Welsh.

    Now I know that there was some settling of the Irish into Wales, would that be the reason for these matches at 67 markers?

    I was generously given matches of the aforementioned Irish names on an Exel sheet; with matches of low 20s for genetic distances and apparently the DF21 Scottish clusters into genetic distance of 30s, I believe this is for 111 markers.

    How does this translate when it comes FTDNA matches of 6 and 7 at 67 markers? Am I closer to Welsh or Irish looking at these two pieces of information.

    It has been very difficult for me to connect my dots for all of my ancestors came to the States from Northern Germany or Scandinavia.


    As always, thank you for any help.

    Christian Wright (Reith)
    What you need to realise is that unless these people are confirmed DF21+ then these matches are probably just convergence. Here is my list of matches at 67 markers

    Green, Griffith, Scott, another Griffith and finally Inches. So how many of these are related to me, well the answer is none because I have found them in various project groups and none of them match on key markers especially DYS462 in which L720 has a unique value of 12 and any of these who had tested to 111 markers had a value of 11. In the case of Inches I contacted this potential match with regard to testing for L21 and they came back negative so this just shows how deceptive these so called matches from FTDNA are, to be honest I do not think that anyone in my matches all the way down to 12 markers is actually related to me and there are quiet a few so unless some of the people you are talking about have tested DF21+ then simply ignore these is the best advice.

    Regarding the spreadsheet I sent you, these are 2000 year old matches and they are all DF21+ and Irish in origin so this is an absolute indicator of where your ancestors were during this time period despite the wishful thinking agenda of others who want to assign a British origin to DF21, if the evidence points in this direction then sure we will look at it but it simply does not on present results and 314.2 is very Irish in origin.

    Finally Hinxton man is dated from the first century AD during which Britain was occupied by the Romans so the location of his remains indicates that he was a Roman slave captured during the invasion of Britain possibly from Wales which may well have been occupied by Celts from Ireland at this period because we know they were there from the Ogham stones and these stones are absolutely associated with DF21 occupied areas of the West and South West of Ireland.

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Finally Hinxton man is dated from the first century AD during which Britain was occupied by the Romans so the location of his remains indicates that he was a Roman slave captured during the invasion of Britain possibly from Wales which may well have been occupied by Celts from Ireland at this period because we know they were there from the Ogham stones and these stones are absolutely associated with DF21 occupied areas of the West and South West of Ireland.
    Occam disagrees. Hinxton man was 1st century British. The Irish settlement of Wales is dated to the 4th century, (as are the earliest Ogham stones). What does that suggest?

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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Not particularly Irish, here is a quick breakdown of the 155 S5488 people currently in the DF21 project

    Irish 56%, Scottish 16%, Welsh 8%. English 4%, unknown and European 16%

    Irish and Scottish Gaels combined represent 72% and the Welsh and English combined represent 12%

    Were back to the tail wagging the dog I see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    DF21 appears to be most common in Ireland now, but we were talking about Reith's ancestry and his matches, not where others in his haplogroup currently reside. I believe DF21 was once widespread throughout the Isles. The main reason I believe that is because one of the two Hinxton Celts from around AD 1 was DF25+, and Hinxton is in what is now SE England.

    Unless and until convincing evidence to the contrary is presented, I do not believe DF21 spread east from Ireland.

    IMHO, L21 in general has been pressed west since the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons in the immediate post-Roman period. Thus its center of gravity, and that of its constituent subclades, like DF21, was altered by the advent of the English.

    You seem to be making the all-too-common error that modern place of greatest frequency equals place of origin. Ancient y-dna seems to be the most effective remedy for that mistake.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-21-2015 at 11:13 AM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    What you need to realise is that unless these people are confirmed DF21+ then these matches are probably just convergence. Here is my list of matches at 67 markers

    Green, Griffith, Scott, another Griffith and finally Inches. So how many of these are related to me, well the answer is none because I have found them in various project groups and none of them match on key markers especially DYS462 in which L720 has a unique value of 12 and any of these who had tested to 111 markers had a value of 11. In the case of Inches I contacted this potential match with regard to testing for L21 and they came back negative so this just shows how deceptive these so called matches from FTDNA are, to be honest I do not think that anyone in my matches all the way down to 12 markers is actually related to me and there are quiet a few so unless some of the people you are talking about have tested DF21+ then simply ignore these is the best advice.

    Regarding the spreadsheet I sent you, these are 2000 year old matches and they are all DF21+ and Irish in origin so this is an absolute indicator of where your ancestors were during this time period despite the wishful thinking agenda of others who want to assign a British origin to DF21, if the evidence points in this direction then sure we will look at it but it simply does not on present results and 314.2 is very Irish in origin.
    What do you mean by "matches"?

    I took a look at Reith's matches as listed by FTDNA, and he has no close Irish matches beyond the 25-marker level. That one (O'Sullivan 23/25) has tested to 111 markers and drops off Reith's list of matches at 37 markers.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Finally Hinxton man is dated from the first century AD during which Britain was occupied by the Romans so the location of his remains indicates that he was a Roman slave captured during the invasion of Britain possibly from Wales which may well have been occupied by Celts from Ireland at this period because we know they were there from the Ogham stones and these stones are absolutely associated with DF21 occupied areas of the West and South West of Ireland.
    Wow! You do know a lot about that DF25+ Hinxton Celt that no one else does! He was a Roman slave from Wales and probably of Irish origin, even though his body was recovered in what is now SE England?

    There is no evidence for any of these assertions. You're just making stuff up. Incredible.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  14. #9
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    One more comment (sorry for three posts in a row).

    I have no "wishful thinking agenda" (quoting oneillabu) where DF21 is concerned. It makes me no never mind where DF21 originated. I don't care. I really don't. I'm not DF21+, and none of my relatives that I know about is DF21+.

    I find ancient y-dna most impressive and convincing and arguments from modern distribution, especially when they are derived from FTDNA project stats, far far less compelling.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    What do you mean by "matches"?





    Wow! You do know a lot about that DF25+ Hinxton Celt that no one else does! He was a Roman slave from Wales and probably of Irish origin, even though his body was recovered in what is now SE England?

    There is no evidence for any of these assertions. You're just making stuff up. Incredible.
    Well first of all here is the definition of possibly, "Capable of happening but of uncertain likelihood" so it is simply one of a number of different possibilities however you seem to have completely ruled out any possibility he originally came across from Ireland so you are the one with blinkers not me.

    Now I am sure that Hinxton man did not have a headstone with a date on it so we must assume that the 1st Century AD dating comes with a least a plus or minus of 100 years so 200 BC is not an unreasonable assumption so the question is were there Irish on the Island of Britain during this period. Well there is a large school of thought that believes that Fergus Mor Mac Erc was simply following other Irish who had crossed to Alba centuries before so this is definitely one possibility however how he could have ended up down South given the hostile picts.

    Well the possible reason for this is the early Welsh Britons of Strathclyde who definitely were well disposed to the new Irish and the are no instances of aggression between them and indeed they eventually married into the Dalriada line which is the source I believe of M222 in Ireland. So we have contact between the Britons and Irish in both Wales and Scotland from a very early time.

    I made the point about the Ogham stones of Wales being physical evidence of the Irish presence in Wales however it was pointed out that these stones date from the fourth century AD which again must come with a plus or minus period. It is my own belief that this Ogham is much older and because it is the Celtic Tree alphabet it must have been initially used with timber none of which obviously would have survived, I am not the only one with this belief by the way check out this passage regarding Professor James Carney and his Ogham research. These Welsh Ogham stones by the way have both Irish Gaelic and Welsh Brythonic on them giving testament to the close connection between both sets of Celts

    The earliest inscriptions in ogham date to about the 4th century AD, but James Carney believes its invention is rather within the 1st century BC. Although the use of "classical" ogham in stone inscriptions seems to have flowered in the 5th–6th centuries around the Irish Sea, from the phonological evidence it is clear that the alphabet predates the 5th century. A period of writing on wood or other perishable material prior to the preserved monumental inscriptions needs to be assumed, sufficient for the loss of the phonemes represented by uath ("H") and straif ("Z"), as well as the velar nasal, getal, all of which are clearly part of the system, but unattested in inscriptions.

    So now we need to look at Britain in the Second century AD and we find it was very much under the Roman yoke so these Ogham stones must have been erected with the Roman's permission giving rise to another possibility and that is that Hinxton man was in the service of the Romans in some capacity, like I said the possibilities are many and varied. We must look at the rest of DF25 especially the Seven Septs of Laois to give and indication of the possible origin of Hinxton man and my money is definitely on the West of Ireland because this is where the nucleus of the earliest DF21 occurs.

    Finally if you think that I am alone in thinking that Hinxton man originated in Ireland take a look at the following post

    Eurogenes K15 shows up something interesting. His Baltic is really low compared to eastern Euro - a pattern which you see in many other British people. Although overall it looks just like a more unusual result for a modern day British person. He looks more extremely northwestern Euro, which is interesting. Apparently closest to West Scottish and Irish using Euclidean distance.

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