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Thread: New Z251 subclade under Z16943

  1. #1
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    New Z251 subclade under Z16943

    Alex Williamson and Mike W identified a potential new subclade under Z16943 last week. Two kits had mutations at 6138777-C-T and 15880567-T-C. I just received an email from Thomas Krahn letting me know that they were able to design primers for 15880567-T-C which he assigned A6078. This SNP can be ordered now through YSEQ, though I imagine it will take a little while for the primers to come in.

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    I received my results for A6078 on Friday: I am ancestral for this SNP, so I remain Z16943*. It looks like the next step for me is NGS, though I don't think any of the other Z16943* guys have BigY or FGC results, so I think I'm likely to have this designation for a while.

    EDIT: I forgot that there are two Z16943* BigY kits on Alex Williamson's "Big Tree" (www.ytree.net), so I may share downstream SNPs with them if a I get a NGS test.
    Last edited by cairn; 07-06-2015 at 04:41 PM.

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     seferhabahir (07-06-2015)

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    I believe one of my friends whose kit I manage will fall into this subclade. He is a 36/37 match with the Burgin kit from Williamson's tree who is A6078, and Burgin matches several people with my friends surname at the 67 marker level. My friend is being tested for Z251 at FTDNA as we speak; if he's positive then eventually we'll do Z16943 and maybe by then A6078 will be available at FTDNA or even a Z251 SNP pack.

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     cairn (07-06-2015)

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    Thank you Huntergatherer1066 for pursuing additional testing for this kit. I hope you'll encourage your friend to join the Z251 project if he tests positive for that. I'm curious if your friend's surname might have French or Norman origins? Both the Burgin and Reams surnames seem to have French origins, and it would be very interesting if this subclade begins to reveal a distinct geographic association.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntergatherer1066 View Post
    I believe one of my friends whose kit I manage will fall into this subclade. He is a 36/37 match with the Burgin kit from Williamson's tree who is A6078, and Burgin matches several people with my friends surname at the 67 marker level. My friend is being tested for Z251 at FTDNA as we speak; if he's positive then eventually we'll do Z16943 and maybe by then A6078 will be available at FTDNA or even a Z251 SNP pack.
    There is already a Z251 SNP panel available from Y SEQ if he is interested and likes fast, reliable service at lower cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cairn View Post
    Thank you Huntergatherer1066 for pursuing additional testing for this kit. I hope you'll encourage your friend to join the Z251 project if he tests positive for that. I'm curious if your friend's surname might have French or Norman origins? Both the Burgin and Reams surnames seem to have French origins, and it would be very interesting if this subclade begins to reveal a distinct geographic association.
    The surname is Dodge, which seems to have multiple possible origins; possible sources include Roger/Hrothgar though. Aside from Burgin, almost all of his matches are other Dodges descended from a Tristram Dodge who settled on Block Island Rhode Island in the 1600s. According to the Dodge Family Association website where Tristram came from is as of yet unknown but he is thought to have been from northern England near the River Tweed. If the name is from Roger that could be Norman.

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     cairn (07-07-2015)

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    I just saw this morning that Alex Williamson's Big Tree has been updated with a new sub-Z16943 sample: Hardage (203309). Hardage shares several mutations with Desmond (N98521) who was Z16943*. Hardage and Desmond now form a new subclade under Z16943 which is parallel to A6078 (discovered in June as mentioned in the first post of this thread).

    It is exciting to see so much discovery happening under Z251. I am grateful to the men who have pursued Big Y or FGC testing to reveal these subclades and also to Alex Williamson for coordinating and analyzing all this data to make these discoveries.

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     seferhabahir (07-10-2015)

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    I noticed that Desmond, Hardage, Burgin and Holmes (all Z16943+) don't appear to be members of the Z251+ Project at Family Tree DNA. If anyone has a way to contact the owners of these kits, I'd like to encourage them to join the project. It would be helpful to be able to compare their STR results with those of the other project members to help them determine SNP testing to pursue.

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     seferhabahir (07-10-2015)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cairn View Post
    I noticed that Desmond, Hardage, Burgin and Holmes (all Z16943+) don't appear to be members of the Z251+ Project at Family Tree DNA. If anyone has a way to contact the owners of these kits, I'd like to encourage them to join the project. It would be helpful to be able to compare their STR results with those of the other project members to help them determine SNP testing to pursue.
    All four of these kits can be found in the larger L21 project and their STR values can be seen there. Administrators of the L21 project would have access to their email addresses and could contact to them with a request to consider joining the Z251 and Subclades Project.
    R1b-M343> L754> L389> P297> M269> L23> L51> P310> L151> P312> Z290> L21> DF13> Z39589> Z251> S11556> S9294> BY3229> BY3231> BY43237> FGC11986> FGC11984> Z18106> FGC11991> L583> FGC11963

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    I remain convinced that the three major subclades of Z251 (Z16943, S11556, FC13899) are all quite old and may be part of the far-flung Bell Beaker spread all across Europe, so I agree that comparing STR values can help pin down some ages for possible groups under those three major subclades. This certainly works in my own cluster which we were able to identify as being distinct long before anyone knew about any of the SNPs below L21. The so-called Baltic Cluster was easily identifiable from STRs alone for years and it took a very long time to find a SNP that represented it (we now have one in A555, which seems to date from about 750-1000 years ago, when the European Ashkenazi population experienced a severe bottleneck and numbered only a few thousand families). The big mystery for me remains what was going in the three thousand years or so between FGC11986 and A555 which is such a large period of time that it remains almost impossible to figure it out.
    R1b-M343> L754> L389> P297> M269> L23> L51> P310> L151> P312> Z290> L21> DF13> Z39589> Z251> S11556> S9294> BY3229> BY3231> BY43237> FGC11986> FGC11984> Z18106> FGC11991> L583> FGC11963

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     cairn (07-11-2015)

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