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Thread: New Z251 subclade under Z16943

  1. #11
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    Well that was fast. My friend came came back Z251+ as expected. So I had him join the Z251 project (and also the R1b and L21 projects). Kit number is 343239.

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     cairn (07-16-2015)

  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cairn View Post
    I noticed that Desmond, Hardage, Burgin and Holmes (all Z16943+) don't appear to be members of the Z251+ Project at Family Tree DNA. If anyone has a way to contact the owners of these kits, I'd like to encourage them to join the project. It would be helpful to be able to compare their STR results with those of the other project members to help them determine SNP testing to pursue.
    I've emailed inviting Burgin as well as another Dodge who is in the L21 project and based on their SNP results appears to have done BigY to join the Z251 project. The other Dodge shares a relatively recent direct paternal ancestor with my Dodge friend whose kit I manage (343239) and is a 36/37 marker match so I am guessing DF13 and Z251 were no calls unfortunately. He will surely also be Z16943+, A6077+, and A6078+ in the novel variants based on the close match with Burgin. Keep an eye out for them, hopefully they'll both join.

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     cairn (08-01-2015)

  5. #13
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    I too am Z16943* (tested at YSEQ). My recent DNA comes from Cornwall but I have long thought we descend from the Beaker culture so seferhabahir I support your premise. These were a sea-going trading people and went to Cornwall and Ireland to get tin to use in the making of bronze. I am not sure if our family descends from ancestors left behind from those ancient travels or is a more recent migration from northern France. Comparing the STR pattern of my male relatives indicates a more recent settlement in Cornwall or perhaps that is an artifact due to adopting surnames late in development. The http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/ site gives the major subclades of Z251 (Z16943, S11556, FC13899) appearing 4300 ybp so are well within that Beaker culture timespan

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     cairn (10-26-2015)

  7. #14
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    Thank you dt4067 for your post. I've been hoping that we might find a Z251+ sample with roots in Cornwall. I agree that our ancestors probably were a part of the Bell-Beaker culture, but I think that is true for all of L21 and it's descendants. I'm very interested in narrowing down the origins of Z251 and it's subclades: what makes Z251 different from, for example, Z253 or L1335?

    I don't think we have enough evidence yet to narrow down our haplogroup's origins; we need more Z251+ people and I'm pleased that we are starting to see this happen with the new SNP packs from Family Tree DNA. However, the lack of data hasn't kept me from speculating.

    I recently came across 'Gallici Nautae de Galliarum Provinciis' A Sixth/Seventh Century Trade with Gaul, Reconsidered (Thomas, C. 1990) and I am intrigued by Thomas' conclusions based on the distribution of Class E ware of Gaulish origin. Looking at Figure 7, the distribution of Class E ware is not unlike the distribution we see among Z251 surnames: pockets of us turn up in Scotland (particularly in the south west), Wales, and Ireland. I don't have a good sense of where in England the Z251 families come from. The number of continental families turning up positive for Z251 is also intriguing and it mirrors the continental origins of Class E ware. Perhaps the 6th and 7th century trade routes proposed by Thomas have something to do with the distribution of Z251 and its subclades.

    The YFull estimates seem to contradict a 6th-7th century expansion or distribution of Z251, but similar associations have been made for other L21 subclades (for example, L1335 has been proposed to be a Pictish marker. YFull gives a formation date of 4300ybp for L1335, but the Picts were a people described from the 4th to 10th centuries).

    I'm pleased, dt4067, to see your Z251 results with a Cornish origin since that lines up well with the Class E ware distribution.

  8. #15
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    Hi Cairn Many of our Cornish people went to Brittany in France (late 4th C) to escape the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Cornwall and yet others would have moved to Ireland and Scotland to do the same. After all they had related families there to shelter them. If you have a look at R1b-L21 in Brittany it tells the story. A trade in the 6-7th centuries is confirmation that the network was still strong. I must have a read of the Thomas book.
    I have just organised for a test at YSEQ of a sample from the USA that should match ours. Still markers to find and I hope that will help

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     cairn (11-04-2015)

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    Cornwall has had historic ties to the Viking Danes. I suspect the Z251 presence in Cornwall may have originated from the presence of the Danish Vikings in Cornwall. Z251 seems to be very closely associated with Viking settlements. I suspect the Danish Vikinngs are the most likely source. This would also explain the presence of Z251 in recent samples in Southern Sweden. The Danes occupied the Southern portion of the Jutland peninsula.

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     cairn (11-04-2015)

  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by danieldgray View Post
    This would also explain the presence of Z251 in recent samples in Southern Sweden.
    Interesting! I hadn't seen any Z251 results in Sweden, so I popped over to the FTDNA Z-251 Group and discovered that there are are a number of new members with continental origins (including Sweden). I hope that some of these new members will choose to pursue a deep-clade test or, better yet, a Big Y for FGC test. The large STR genetic distances in several of the Z251 subclades suggest a number of new SNPs and subclades that have yet to be discovered.

    If others (or this forum and elsewhere) are correct that L21 is a Celtic marker, then it would be curious to find Z251 among the Viking Danes. Perhaps they were captured slaves? But then, whose to say that, for example, the grandson of a Celtic slave among the Danes is any less a Dane than his cousins with a Danish paternal grandfather.

    Likewise, it's highly likely that at least some of the Z251 ancestors came to England, Scotland and Wales as part of the Norman conquest - whether or not those ancestors were considered "Norman" themselves is up for debate.

    dt4067, you're right, that trade network existed for centuries, so there's no telling at what point our Z251 ancestors might have settled (or resettled) in the Isles. I recently read Barry Cunliff's Britain Begins and he also presented a lot of evidence for a Brittany/Celtic Sea/Irish Sea trade network, though his focus was not as late as in Charles Thomas' paper above. I'm hopeful that future genetic testing of ancient remains will help solve some of our riddle. Thanks for your part in finding more participants to test!

  13. #18
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    Hi Cairn It is interesting that you mention slaves. Julius Caesar does not give numbers of Celtic slaves in his "Commentarii de bello Gallico" yet he became very rich from their sale. An obvious reason for no mention is that he would have had to share the proceeds with the treasury back in Rome. Westermann’s estimate of 150000 slaves from the Gallic Wars is reasonable. Some were given to his legionaries as booty, some would have made it to Rome but most remained the property of Caesar and were sold to slave traders. I imagine that in Caesar's time many of the vessels leaving the North Atlantic coast of France would have been slave ships. The Celts themselves had their own slave system, we know of slavery in Ireland and one in five people in Scandinavia were thralls. There is lots of scope for the spread of Celtic DNA in that first century BC alone.

  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dt4067 View Post
    There is lots of scope for the spread of Celtic DNA in that first century BC alone.
    And that's what makes it so hard to pin down the origins of Z251, let alone it's "brother clades" under DF13. I think you are absolutely right that the Roman slave trade sent many Celts far and wide, not to mention his and later emperors stationing of Celtic auxiliaries across the empire. However, I think there's an interesting phenomenon in Z251 where we find participants spread fairly broadly on the continent as well as in the Isles. Particularly interesting are the men with insular ancestry and surnames indicating a continental origin. That leads me to think that there must, for at least some families in Z251, have been a movement of people around the time of surname formation; lets say 800 - 1400. Viking raids and resettlement were certainly prominent in this time period, and their capture and selling of slaves may very well have contributed to the spread of Z251. Commerce certainly happened in this time period, and I'm sure that at least some of the sailor merchants were Z251. The Norman Conquest also brought an influx of continental folk (Normans as well as Bretons) to the isles and I wouldn't be surprised to find Z251 among the invaders.

    Any of these, and perhaps all of them, are things that might have spread our Z251 ancestors around. I don't think we'll be able to make the picture much more clear without DNA results from ancient remains. I hope that more europeans pursue DNA testing as well - it would be very interesting to see where on the continent Z251 still shows up.

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    In trying to reconcile the broader distribution of L21 tied to Celtics with the distribution of z251 that alligns with Viking settlements. I wonder whether z251 is tied to a more Northern area occupied by the Gauls. Perhaps z251 is tied to Cimbri Jutland. The Cimbris were said to be an off-shoot of the Celtic tribe located on the Jutland peninsula. When looking at a map of where Cimbris were said to have moved, it includes some of the areas where z251 has appeared. Also, there are some articles noting some correlation with language in Wales. I am not sure if there is any dna testing for Cimbri, but it seems like a possible explanation. Alternatively, perhaps another Norther area of Gaul such as Belgica may have been the source.

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     cairn (11-06-2015)

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