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Thread: New YFull R-Z93 customers

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmehar View Post
    Right now everyone has ordered Y30.
    Why not spend a little more and order the entire R1a-Z93 SNP Pack?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Why not spend a little more and order the entire R1a-Z93 SNP Pack?
    They all don't wanna shell out $99 each; they're going to stock pile up cash to get Y-Elite for select individuals they're curious about. I'm assuming they're using their leftover funds to just get 1 SNP tested for as many individuals possible as opposed to the $99 R1a-Z93 block. I just recently purchased FG Y Elite 2.0 (or 2.1 now?... who knows).

    I'm lucky enough I was able to convince them to shoot for Y-Elite. It's hard enough communicating with these fellahs in Arabic.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmehar View Post
    Some more interesting stuff, rivals of the Shammar tribe, Dulaim, have picked up R-M512 > R-L657 in Iraq. Though we need more results/samples from the tribe to get a clearer picture.. With what we have now, the distribution of the tribe depicts 80% R-M512 (a few R-L657) and the one other J-M172. More interestingly, one of the R-L657 samples is a high profile hereditary clan leader and tribal chief.

    One of the Dulaimi tribe samples also happens to live in Ramadi Iraq, unfortunately where all the turmoil going on recently.

    Also, 2 more Shaibi clan members in Mecca turned up as R-M512.

    There must have been huge shifts back then between Sindh and the Fertile Crescent. Right now everyone has ordered Y30.
    The R-M512 Shaibi will likely be L657+ Y7+.

    al-Shibi L657+, Y7+ M6740 Mecca
    Re: "(How R1a is the identified Y-lineage of the Abraham-descended Banu Shaiba, keepers of the keys to the Ka'abah [of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca], is still a mystery to me.)"
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post45104
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The R-M512 Shaibi will likely be L657+ Y7+.

    al-Shibi L657+, Y7+ M6740 Mecca
    Re: "(How R1a is the identified Y-lineage of the Abraham-descended Banu Shaiba, keepers of the keys to the Ka'abah [of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca], is still a mystery to me.)"
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post45104
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp
    There is nothing mysterious about this. Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Persians ruled parts of the today arabic-speaking world and in sparsely populated areas small incursions of Indo-Iranian tribes could change a lot of the y-DNA because of founder effects and bottle necks. Much of R1a in Arabia arrived probably just in islamic times with Central Asian, Persian, Baluch or Indian traders and for example Sogdian mercenaries were settled also there. When Mongols invaded an devastated Central Asia, many Central Asians tried to escape them and moved west to Anatolia and Arabia. Quite ironic that there is in the end much more Central Asian/Indo-Iranian Y-DNA in Arabia among natives than Arabic Y-DNA among natives in Central Asia (actually it is almost absent there). Actually I would even say that SW Asian muslims became more "eastern" shifted in the Islamic age.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 12-30-2015 at 04:18 PM.

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    There is nothing mysterious about this. Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Persians ruled parts of the today arabic-speaking world and in sparsely populated areas small incursions of Indo-Iranian tribes could change a lot of the y-DNA because of founder effects and bottle necks. Much of R1a in Arabia arrived probably just in islamic times with Central Asian, Persian, Baluch or Indian traders and for example Sogdian mercenaries were settled also there. When Mongols invaded an devastated Central Asia, many Central Asians tried to escape them and moved west to Anatolia and Arabia. Quite ironic that there is in the end much more Central Asian/Indo-Iranian Y-DNA in Arabia among natives than Arabic Y-DNA among natives in Central Asia (actually it is almost absent there). Actually I would even say that SW Asian muslims became more "eastern" shifted in the Islamic age.
    I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

    With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

    Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

    "Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

    The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M172 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

    "Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

    Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

    Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.

    **************EDIT*********************

    It's J-M172, not J-M127
    Last edited by wmehar; 12-30-2015 at 10:34 PM.

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    There is nothing mysterious about this. Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Persians ruled parts of the today arabic-speaking world and in sparsely populated areas small incursions of Indo-Iranian tribes could change a lot of the y-DNA because of founder effects and bottle necks. Much of R1a in Arabia arrived probably just in islamic times with Central Asian, Persian, Baluch or Indian traders and for example Sogdian mercenaries were settled also there. When Mongols invaded an devastated Central Asia, many Central Asians tried to escape them and moved west to Anatolia and Arabia. Quite ironic that there is in the end much more Central Asian/Indo-Iranian Y-DNA in Arabia among natives than Arabic Y-DNA among natives in Central Asia (actually it is almost absent there). Actually I would even say that SW Asian muslims became more "eastern" shifted in the Islamic age.
    I agree, all of these are indeed possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmehar View Post
    I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

    With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

    Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

    "Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

    The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M127 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

    "Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

    Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

    Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.
    Yes that is correct.
    Mamluk expressed surprise, I believe, not with just the presence of R1a1 in Arabia, but its presence among the Koraish, especially in the family line in possession of the Kaaba's key from prior to the advent of Islam, and entrusted by the Prophet Mohammad to continue to do so, and which they have done through the present.

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  12. #17
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    If you're wondering about the Adnanite-Qahtanite dichotomy and how it relates to Arabisation, you should really read what I wrote here.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    If you're wondering about the Adnanite-Qahtanite dichotomy and how it relates to Arabisation, you should really read what I wrote here.
    Very interesting read, and I found the links to the ancient stone inscriptions to be quite fascinating. From what you've wrote, it makes plenty sense to see the inverse in that the Adnanites are seemed to Arabize the Qahtanites. The OSA predated Northern Arabian language right? Though we gotta be technical when talking about these guys in the Bronze Age, there was no Adnan/Qahtan in the Bronze Age.

    "Classification issues[edit]
    It was originally thought that all four members of this group were dialects of one Old South Arabian language, but in the mid-twentieth century Beeston finally proved that they did in fact constitute independent languages.[2]


    South Arabian alphabet inscribed in a rock in Bariq province
    The Old South Arabian languages were originally classified (partly on the basis of geography) as South Semitic, along with Arabic, Modern South Arabian and Ethiopian Semitic; more recently however, a new classification has come in use which places Old South Arabian, along with Arabic, Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite/Hebrew in a Central Semitic group; leaving Modern South Arabian and Ethiopic in a separate group. This new classification is based on Arabic, Old South Arabian and Northwest Semitic (Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite) sharing an innovation in the verbal system, an imperfect taking the form *yVqtVl-u (the other groups have *yVqattVl); Nebes showed that Sabaean at least had the form yVqtVl in the imperfect.

    Even though has been now accepted that the four main languages be considered independent, they are clearly closely related linguistically and derive from a common ancestor because they share certain morphological innovations. One of the most important isoglosses retained in all four languages is the suffixed definite article - (h)n.[3] There are however significant differences between the languages." - From wiki article

    Before the Qahtan tribes were established, it may be more adequate to describe the southern arabs as having expanded north (in a linguistic sense - trade or migration). Which then fermented the foundation of their language to evolve in its own line. Then in due time (post 600 BC-ish after Adnan/Qahtan's time) the northern arabians came back down and spread their own line over the south through up until islamic expansion. It's quite ironic, the Adnanites, "Adnanized" the Qahtans.

    There were so many migrations across the arabian peninsula throughout time; I wouldn't be surprised if many seemed to travel and pick up languages from trade. There being so much fewer people back then, I'd imagine it'd be similar to today where many Arabs spoke multiple dialects easily.
    Last edited by wmehar; 01-05-2016 at 02:56 PM.

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    If you're wondering about the Adnanite-Qahtanite dichotomy and how it relates to Arabisation, you should really read what I wrote here.
    seferhabahir and you both mentioned the Tamim. The Tamim have both R2 and R1a.
    There is an abna connection to them, right? The abna switched early from the Sassanid to the Arabs and were a soldier caste associated with a highly skilled class of iron/steel workers from India.
    Please see
    The al-abna and the Tamim
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Loe6jUEGc6QC&pg=PA37
    https://books.google.com/books?id=VfYnu5F20coC&pg=PA270

    Please see also:
    The Zott and the Tamim
    https://books.google.com/books?id=df2mIOnbrDoC&pg=PA20

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    seferhabahir and you both mentioned the Tamim. The Tamim have both R2 and R1a.
    There is an abna connection to them, right? The abna switched early from the Sassanid to the Arabs and were a soldier caste associated with a highly skilled class of iron/steel workers from India.
    Please see
    The al-abna and the Tamim
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Loe6jUEGc6QC&pg=PA37
    https://books.google.com/books?id=VfYnu5F20coC&pg=PA270

    Please see also:
    The Zott and the Tamim
    https://books.google.com/books?id=df2mIOnbrDoC&pg=PA20
    So on page 271, the Abna reference Firuz al-Daylami as another Abna chief. (in wiki he was "Firuz al-Dhalaymi") I didn't realize the similarity to the two names until now. Do you think there's a connection between Dulaimi tribe in Iraq in Al-Anbar and Firuz here? I've read the Dulaimi are also in Oman and Yemen.

    From what I understand, when Islamic Prophet Muhammad prophesied to Bādhān ibn Sāsān regarding how Khosrau II will die should he not accept Islam, Badhan then returned to Yemen and waited to see what would happen. When it the prophecy was fulfilled in the same manner as the Prophet Muhammad said it would, they converted immediately.


    ****EDIT***

    Perhaps the name similarity is just a coincidence ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dailamites
    Last edited by wmehar; 01-06-2016 at 06:26 PM.

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