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Thread: New YFull R-Z93 customers

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmehar View Post
    Very interesting read, and I found the links to the ancient stone inscriptions to be quite fascinating. From what you've wrote, it makes plenty sense to see the inverse in that the Adnanites are seemed to Arabize the Qahtanites. The OSA predated Northern Arabian language right? Though we gotta be technical when talking about these guys in the Bronze Age, there was no Adnan/Qahtan in the Bronze Age.

    "Classification issues[edit]
    It was originally thought that all four members of this group were dialects of one Old South Arabian language, but in the mid-twentieth century Beeston finally proved that they did in fact constitute independent languages.[2]


    South Arabian alphabet inscribed in a rock in Bariq province
    The Old South Arabian languages were originally classified (partly on the basis of geography) as South Semitic, along with Arabic, Modern South Arabian and Ethiopian Semitic; more recently however, a new classification has come in use which places Old South Arabian, along with Arabic, Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite/Hebrew in a Central Semitic group; leaving Modern South Arabian and Ethiopic in a separate group. This new classification is based on Arabic, Old South Arabian and Northwest Semitic (Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite) sharing an innovation in the verbal system, an imperfect taking the form *yVqtVl-u (the other groups have *yVqattVl); Nebes showed that Sabaean at least had the form yVqtVl in the imperfect.

    Even though has been now accepted that the four main languages be considered independent, they are clearly closely related linguistically and derive from a common ancestor because they share certain morphological innovations. One of the most important isoglosses retained in all four languages is the suffixed definite article - (h)n.[3] There are however significant differences between the languages." - From wiki article

    Before the Qahtan tribes were established, it may be more adequate to describe the southern arabs as having expanded north (in a linguistic sense - trade or migration). Which then fermented the foundation of their language to evolve in its own line. Then in due time (post 600 BC-ish after Adnan/Qahtan's time) the northern arabians came back down and spread their own line over the south through up until islamic expansion. It's quite ironic, the Adnanites, "Adnanized" the Qahtans.

    There were so many migrations across the arabian peninsula throughout time; I wouldn't be surprised if many seemed to travel and pick up languages from trade. There being so much fewer people back then, I'd imagine it'd be similar to today where many Arabs spoke multiple dialects easily.
    For all intents and purposes, Hismaic and Safaitic are the closest thing we have to Arabic (which is why they're best labeled "Old Arabic"), then comes Dadanitic and the other Ancient North Arabian languages (Taymanitic, Thamudic B, Thamudic C, Thamudic D, Southern Thamudic, Hasaitic and Dumaitic) which are more para-Arabic languages than anything else (more research is needed to clear up the classification). The relationship between Old Arabic and modern dialects is still unclear, though there are quite a few similarities (some of which may be artificial, in the same way Taymanitic and Dadanitic share certain commonalities with Hebrew which are quite likely artificial in nature). Anyhow, this puts proto-Arabic squarely in the Levantine and NWern edge of the Syro-Arabian desert.

    And yes, OSA clearly predates most North Arabian languages. And the fact that it shares the typical Central Semitic verbal innovation, namely the substitution of the original West Semitic *yaqattal stem (which was retained in Ethiosemitic and Modern South Arabian) for a new form comprising the preterite plus an augment, -u in conjugations terminating in a consonant (as in Classical Arabic taktubu) and -na in conjugations terminating in a vowel (as in Classical Arabic taktubīna or taktubūna) certainly indicates that the proto-OSA speakers also came from the north (in all likeliness from the Levant) at some point during the second half of the 3rd millenium BCE (right after the disintegration of proto-Central Semitic around the mid-3rd millenium BCE if you ask me). So it's relatively safe to conclude that most of the demographic changes & upheavals in the Arabian peninsula followed a north-to-south pattern from the start of the Holocene and that this pattern changed with the historical expansions of Arabian tribes (and even then, it isn't that clear-cut, take the Qays and Yaman tribes for example).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-12-2016 at 11:39 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post

    And yes, OSA clearly predates most North Arabian languages. And the fact that it shares the typical Central Semitic verbal innovation, namely the substitution of the original West Semitic *yaqattal stem (which was retained in Ethiosemitic and Modern South Arabian) for a new form comprising the preterite plus an augment, -u in conjugations terminating in a consonant (as in Classical Arabic taktubu) and -na in conjugations terminating in a vowel (as in Classical Arabic taktubīna or taktubūna) certainly indicates that the proto-OSA speakers also came from the north (in all likeliness from the Levant) at some point during the second half of the 3rd millenium BCE (right after the disintegration of proto-Central Semitic around the mid-3rd millenium BCE if you ask me). So it's relatively safe to conclude that most of the demographic changes & upheavals in the Arabian peninsula followed a north-to-south pattern from the start of the Holocene and that this pattern changed with the historical expansions of Arabian tribes (and even then, it isn't that clear-cut, take the Qays and Yaman tribes for example).
    So would you say that South Semitic as it is usually circumscribed is a paraphyletic grouping, or do you ascribe those common features to contact with Central Semitic?

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
    So would you say that South Semitic as it is usually circumscribed is a paraphyletic grouping, or do you ascribe those common features to contact with Central Semitic?
    I'd simply say that South Semitic is a completely obsolete node since Ethiosemitic and MSA share no common innovations, so there's no such thing as proto-South Semitic and both are basically the earliest (and therefore most conservative) West Semitic offshoots while Proto-Central Semitic is an innovative offshoot which stayed put in the Proto-West Semitic homeland's vicinity.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-14-2016 at 12:51 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmehar View Post
    I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

    With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

    Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

    "Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

    The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M172 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

    "Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

    Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

    Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.

    **************EDIT*********************

    It's J-M172, not J-M127
    *Update*

    After speaking with a knowledgeable gentleman from Kuwait, it would seem the connection of R-L657 Quraysh and Dulaim is more complicated (if it exists) than I initially thought. It just so happens that the Dulaim tribe moved into the Al-Anbar Province 500 years back from Northwest Iraq. Where they were before that, I'm not sure. But one thing is for certain, that Dulaim tribe has not always been in Al-Anbar of Iraq thus dispelling any certain R1a links with Quraysh members.

    In other news, another gentlemen from Dulaim tribe came up as R-M512.

    The hole just keeps getting deeper.
    Last edited by wmehar; 04-04-2016 at 03:20 PM.

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  9. #25
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    Just noticed they added https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASear...?acc=ERS416490 / https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASear...?acc=ERR445345 to R-Y16494 on YFull's tree:

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y2439/

    My mom's dad is also on this line and his ancestry is also Sikh Punjabi (Pansota clan)
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494) (FTDNA Kit 311047), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29) (FTDNA Kit 329181))

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