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Thread: R1b-U106 in Swedish Battle Axe Culture (a Corded Ware subgroup)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curleyprow View Post
    As a further interesting piece of information which I recently found out is that the S1855 which is my terminal hoplogroup is also found in a couple of UK specimens so far. Both have ancient Norse names and one is Osborne. I am aware that most surnames are of comparatively recent origin. However, some are not and Osborne is noted to be an ancient Norse derivative. On reading the Swedish Vikings in England : The evidence of the rune stones by Sven B. F. Jansson (1965), more carefully I noted that on the Raby stone there is the inscription ( translated) " Objorn raised this stone in memory of Skarde.He died in England in the host"
    So along with the u106 found in Sweden the Rune inscription, my Swedish ancestors and my connection to Osborne in England today through S1855. Perhaps pieces of the puzzle of my origin are coming together!
    It's a slow, but very interesting and at the same time frustrating detective game Curleyprow! When I first started I found myself in the Z304 group of U106 and they had just discovered the DF98 SNP/group and a few months later they connected that to the House of Wettin... then after a few years later my matches were still pretty old modern wise (like in the B.C. based on Big Y dating per Dr. McDonald) and I got the nice match with the York Gladiator 6drif-3 who is within a few SNPs of my modern matches - and now we have the Unetice man who is R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900... so that gives us a clue to where our line came from... and explains the Eastern matches we have in Z304 like Polish ones... also just off the top of my head in S1911 there is the Dutton family (Norman descendants of Odard de Dutton - Duttons and Warburtons) and matched with them off of S1911 there is a guy from Ukraine... stuff like that. Shows us that early expansion around that time perhaps per the SNPs with more matches like that at older levels ;-). Over time you'll find more matches hopefully... I am currently waiting on a better/closer modern match... along with just more ancient matches. The U106ers in the Longobard cemetery in Szolad was cool huh? :-).
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ York Gladiator 6drif-3

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - MtDNA - T2b2b - most common in Ireland, connection to Scandinavia (T2b2b most common in Ireland/Scan) aka T2b female warrior burial Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden.

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    Bollox79, that is truly interesting. I noted this in a personal communication with Dr MacDonald, who stated that he was also related to this gladiator. An amazing find. He must have been a captured Germani warrior presumably forced into gladiatorial service by his Roman masters! In any event I wish I had that kind of accuracy in my quest. however, would you agree that my suppositions from what I have gleaned about my ancestry and it's connection to Sweden seem reasonable and logical? Please advise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curleyprow View Post
    Bollox79, that is truly interesting. I noted this in a personal communication with Dr MacDonald, who stated that he was also related to this gladiator. An amazing find. He must have been a captured Germani warrior presumably forced into gladiatorial service by his Roman masters! In any event I wish I had that kind of accuracy in my quest. however, would you agree that my suppositions from what I have gleaned about my ancestry and it's connection to Sweden seem reasonable and logical? Please advise.
    Sorry it took me so long to reply! As far as the Gladiator is concerned (we are related to two of them actually both 6drif-3 who is in my signature and also 3drif-16 who is R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306 and kin to 6drif-3?) per his isotopes and autosomal he may look local to SW Scotland and/or perhaps someplace opposite on the continent? Not too sure how much we can draw from that... but isotopes appear somewhat "local". Give the article on them in the nature a read here https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

    Considering the amount of military funeral material I've found record of being found in or around the Mount where these guys were buried... who knows maybe some were gladiators and some auxiliaries?

    Yes I'd say you are on the right track reading your earlier postings... so what data do you have so far that makes you think there is a connection to Sweden? Mainly Scandinavian matches above and around your level of SNPs in your group? By that I mean look at the U106 project at FTDNA and look at the SNP levels above you... and of course your closest matches etc... what do you see?
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ York Gladiator 6drif-3

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - MtDNA - T2b2b - most common in Ireland, connection to Scandinavia (T2b2b most common in Ireland/Scan) aka T2b female warrior burial Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here is a nice document of y-dna results put together by Jean M from the recent Allentoft et al paper.

    Notice that RISE98 of the Swedish Battle Axe culture, a Scandinavian Corded Ware subgroup, is R1b-U106?

    That strikes me as a pretty exciting result, although I am not U106+ myself. IMHO, it tends to confirm the apparent very long term connection between U106 and the evolution of Germanic.

    Congratulations, cousins!
    As a result of the postings on Anthrogenica, the qualification R1b U106 in Swedish Battle Axe culture can't be confirmed.....

    See:
    Posting of Angantyr,
    Adding to this, Lilla Beddinge has always been considered a Battle Axe, LN and Bronze Age cemetery. The identified Bronze Age burials are cremations so we can ignore them here, but the 13 Battle Axe and LN graves are located next to each other. 3 graves (46, 48 and 50) that completely lack grave goods have been considered LN, and one (mass) grave (47) has been considered uncertain. ("Considered" here refers to the very influential works of Mats Malmer who among other things excavated several of the Lilla Beddinge graves.)

    RISE98's grave, 49, has been considered a Battle Axe grave based solely on the construction features and the single item found in the grave, a bone needle. I'm no archaeologist, but a single bone needle in a mass grave like 49 doesn't seem like an intentional grave gift that can be reliably used to date a grave. And regarding the construction features, Louise Olerud's
    The time-depth of Corded Ware burial landscapes: A comparative study of Single Grave and Battle Axe burial alignments in Denmark, The Netherlands and Sweden which was linked earlier in this thread shows that recent radiocarbon dates clearly prove that either Malmer's grave construction typology is not reliable, or that skeletons have been moved between graves to such an extent that the grave constructions can't be used to date the buried individuals.

    Moreover, as you also can see in the linked study, RISE98's grave 49 sits right next to the two "clearly" LN graves 48 and 50. So with the lack of Battle Axe features of RISE98's burial and what we now know from radiocarbon dates, there's absolutely no reason to refer to him as "Battle Axe" and use that to argue for R1B-U106 presence in Battle Axe/CWC. (Even though his post-Battle Axe status in itself is no proof for a recent arrival of his genes in the area either.)

    When it comes to signs of arrival of new people in Scandinavia, we also have some isotope data for the other individuals in grave 49, see Elin Fornander's Dietary diversity and moderate mobility - isotope evidence from Scanian Battle Axe Culture burials (I can't post links):


    Stable sulphur isotope data from more than one element is available for six subjects; four from Lilla Bedinge together [...]
    and

    There are no indications of residential change for the individuals from [...] Grave 53 at Lilla Bedinge [...]. Data for the remaining three Lilla Bedinge individuals, however, are less clear cut. All exhibit shifts in δ34S, not correlating with δ13C changes, exceeding 1‰. Such minor changes could potentially be the result of variations in δ34S on the local level, although the shift of 1.7‰ between M1 and M2 for the North skeleton in Grave 49 seems to indicate residential change. For the Middle skeleton in Grave 49 and the Child burial in Grave 47, however, values can be considered inconclusive regarding potential changes in residence

    So, at least two of RISE98's buddies might have been non-locals...
    And although this can be taken with lost of salts we see in the auDNA admixtures that Rise 98 don't clit with the other Battle Axe samples in Southern Scandinavia, in stead it hints more to a Central European background/ancestry (BB/Unetice like).

    So I guess the label R1b U106 in Battle Axe based on the sample Rise98 Lilla Beddinge can be considered passé.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    As a result of the postings on Anthrogenica, the qualification R1b U106 in Swedish Battle Axe culture can't be confirmed.....

    See:


    And although this can be taken with lost of salts we see in the auDNA admixtures that Rise 98 don't clit with the other Battle Axe samples in Southern Scandinavia, in stead it hints more to a Central European background/ancestry (BB/Unetice like).

    So I guess the label R1b U106 in Battle Axe based on the sample Rise98 Lilla Beddinge can be considered passé.
    He may have been an early arrival but arrival has to start somewhere and doesn't stop with one individual.
    The relevance/significance of individual samples or a handful of samples may vary dependent on what people believe to some extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    He may have been an early arrival but arrival has to start somewhere and doesn't stop with one individual.
    The relevance/significance of individual samples or a handful of samples may vary dependent on what people believe to some extent.
    Indeed John....so are we disappointing the "Battle Axe believers" ?

    Mea culpa!
    Last edited by Finn; 03-14-2018 at 01:58 PM.

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    Not at all Finn. The whole discussion here is so embedded in jargon, which when quoted from sources, I am pretty certain most discussants don't fully understand anyway, and the whole 'science 'of genetic inheritance so open to interpretation that nothing indicated on these pages is more than remotely speculative. You have to be a believer simply to continue with membership!

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    Exactly, but have you considered the probabilities of discovery isolated samples of ancient specimens which happen to be the only examples actually available? If U106 was very rare in Sweden you would have to be extraordinarily lucky to find those samples, and statistical probability theory would suggest this as being very unlikely indeed. Because a few ancient specimens have been discovered, probability theory would suggest that such genetic influence of that type must have been quite prevalent to make such a discovery a thousand years later remotely possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curleyprow View Post
    Exactly, but have you considered the probabilities of discovery isolated samples of ancient specimens which happen to be the only examples actually available? If U106 was very rare in Sweden you would have to be extraordinarily lucky to find those samples, and statistical probability theory would suggest this as being very unlikely indeed. Because a few ancient specimens have been discovered, probability theory would suggest that such genetic influence of that type must have been quite prevalent to make such a discovery a thousand years later remotely possible.
    The samples are indeed in a certain way random, we have to deal with the available we have.....How representative they are is doubtful. But we still can connect those samples with a archeological context. And we can use admixtures. Of course there stays a speculative aspect in it. It's in the end not a kind of mathematics.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Indeed John....so are we disappointing the "Battle Axe believers" ?

    Mea culpa!
    Dr. McDonald extract " the number of direct sub-clades of U106 (current 12) indicating U106 expanded quickly after it formed (alongside P312)... the location of RISE 98 and the lack of U106 in existing Bell Beaker burials likely indicates that the modern disribution of U106 is indicative of it's origin in north west Europe..... "

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