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Thread: Were Myceneans lineages R1b or R1a

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    Were Myceneans lineages R1b or R1a?

    Mycenean refers to the proto-Greek civilisation of the Peloponnese.
    Question : Were the Indo-European paternal lineages of Myceneans R1b or R1a?
    Last edited by Odyss; 06-17-2015 at 09:38 PM.

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    I'm looking forward to seeing their results! It could be either and also both at the same time. It'll be very interesting when they get tested and their results are available.

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    IMO odds are they will be R1b L23xL51 but could be mixed. You really have to wonder now if there was R1a on the actual southern part of the Euro steppes before Iranian branch tribes. I think the Thracian-Dacians were heavy in M269 and L23xL51 because I am pretty convinced by the argument that the Albanians area a remnant of them. Satem or satemised groups throught to be of Balkans origins like the Armenians are clearly linked to L23 and a bit of M269xL23. It seems to me that not only were apparently early branch offs like the Celto-Italics R1b related but with other centum branches like Greeks and possibly satem or satemised Dacian-Albanians and Armenians also R1b rich it gives the impression that a number of IE waves over a long period were R1b rich. I feel that only Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians are R1a related albeit the later Germanic areas seem to be an overlap zone. The overlap of R1a and R1b in the Germanic speaking lands seem to me to be a consequence of beaker dominating the west-central European part of CW after on a couple of centuries of hegemony. I also think that the awkward to categorise nature of Germanic or pre-Germanic owes something to this quick succession of CW and beaker in that area.

    I dont know but now we have a pretty clear path of R1a through CW and its eastern offshots and the modern linguistic correspondences with R1a and probable descendants of those cultures.

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    My guess would be R1b.
    I dont know if the Bronze Age Myceae Bulls

    Myceae.jpg
    are linked to the Bronze Age
    Maikop
    Maikop Bull.jpg
    and
    Iberian (Costix) bulls
    Costix Bull.jpeg
    but it is an interesting possibility.
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odyss View Post
    Mycenean refers to the proto-Greek civilisation of the Peloponnese.
    Question : Were the Indo-European paternal lineages of Myceneans R1b or R1a?
    Southern Greece yields much higher rates of R1b, as do the former western colonies of Greece in modern day Turkey.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    This is a very good question.
    I am pretty sure that it will be R1b-Z2103 related maybe some R1b upstream also. The presence of R1b in Armenia at 1800 BC shows that it must be also present in Greece. Because the link between Armenian and Greek languages.
    So my bet is R1b. But for Dorians I think R1a is a good candidate. The Dorians brought a second layer of IE words that links Greek words to Iranian languages.
    Last edited by Arame; 06-18-2015 at 05:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    But for Dorians I think R1a is a good candidate.
    Which paticular clade of R1a do you have in mind? I don't know any Greece-specific or Balkan-specific subclade of R1a that would be both relatively common in SE Europe and sufficiently old to be regarded as potentially associated with the influx of the Dorians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    The Dorians brought a second layer of IE words that links Greek words to Iranian languages.
    Are you saying that the Mycenean Greek lacked the Iranian-related or Indo-Iranian-related words (known from the Ancient and/or Modern Greek?) that can be securely (and specifically) assigned to a later influence of the Dorian dialect? If so, could you please provide any examples of such words or refer us to any linguistic work that suggests this kind of Iranian-related division between the Mycenean Greek and Dorian Greek?

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    Curiously, the mtDNA of some samples has been tested already:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.br/2008...ycenae_07.html

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    I am reffering to the Graeco-Aryan hypothese which is quite difficult to imagine in the current stage of our genetic knowledge. I just proposed a version that could explain this hypothese, but if You think that Greeks lack any R1a that is sufficiently old/specific for Dorian invasion then I will not insist.

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    David Anthony on the Mycenaeans:

    Luckily we have well-dated inscriptions in two other Indo-European languages from the same era as the Hittite empire. The first was Greek, the language of the palace-centered Bronze Age warrior kings who ruled at Mycenae, Pylos, and other strongholds in Greece beginning about 1650 BCE. The Mycenaean civilization appeared rather suddenly with the construction of the spectacular Shaft Graves of Mycenae, dated about 1650 BCE, about the same time as the rise of the Hittite empire in Anatolia. The Shaft Graves, with their golden death masks, swords, spears, and images of men in chariots, signified the elevation of a new Greek-speaking dynasty of unprecedented wealth whose economic power depended on long-distance sea trade. The Mycenaean kingdoms were destroyed during the same period of unrest and pillage that brought down the Hittite empire about 1150 BCE. Mycenaean Greek, the language of palace administration as recorded in the Linear B tablets, was clearly Greek, not Proto-Greek, by 1450 BCE, the date of the oldest preserved inscriptions. The people who spoke it were the models for Nestor and Agamemnon, whose deeds, dimly remembered and elevated to epic, were celebrated centuries later by Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey. We do not know when Greek speakers appeared in Greece, but it happened no later than 1650 BCE. As with Anatolian, there are numerous indications that Mycenaean Greek was an intrusive language in a land where non-Greek languages had been spoken before the Mycenaean age.
    pages 48 and 49

    A number of artifact types and customs connect the Mycenaean Shaft Grave princes, the first definite Greek speakers at about 1650 BCE, with steppe or southeastern European cultures. These parallels included specific types of cheekpieces for chariot horses, specific types of socketed spearheads, and even the custom of making masks for the dead, which was common on the Ingul River during the late Catacomb culture, between about 2500 and 2000 BCE. It is very difficult, however, to define the specific source of the migration stream that brought the Shaft Grave princes into Greece. The people who imported Greek or Proto-Greek to Greece might have moved several times, perhaps by sea, from the western Pontic steppes to southeastern Europe to western Anatolia to Greece, making their trail hard to find.
    page 369

    From "The Horse, the Wheel and Language"
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 06-18-2015 at 11:13 PM.

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