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Thread: Were Myceneans lineages R1b or R1a

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    In later papers the sample is classified as simply J (The Beaker phenomenon and the genomic
    transformation of northwest Europe for example)

    NW Russia (61°30′N 35°45′E) is hardly the Pontic–Caspian Steppe

    Finally this sample is over 7000 yrs old and classified as EHG so highly unlikely to be a source of PIE from Anatolia

    Edit: Ha, just noticed the J2a sample in your link was labeled MLBA so presumably must be I4794 (not I0211 as I guessed).

    Anyway that one comes from central Kazakhstan and dates to 1600-1400 BCE so again hardly a source for Yamna PIE
    You will find more mammoth bones buried in Kazakhstan than J2 during that period.
    yDNA: R1b-BY17850 (Ulster Scots/Lowland Scotland)
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    Maternal grandmother (MDKA: Angelina Centrella, Avellino, Campania, Italia) - mtDNA: HV4a1


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  3. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Write the authors and request a correction: https://public.tableau.com/profile/v...tralAsia/Fig_1
    Request a outlier to be added or completely argue against it, I have no time for these games.
    I don't have to request a correction, because that J2 sample isn't classified nor labeled as Steppe_MLBA in the paper. It's classified as an outlier from Turan.

    This sample has nothing to do with the formation of Steppe_MLBA, with Yamnaya, Maykop or even the Pontic steppe. It's too young and obviously a migrant from Turan to the Kazakh steppe.

    You're a troll.

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    @jdean

    Edit: Ha, just noticed the J2a sample in your link was labeled MLBA so presumably must be I4794 (not I0211 as I guessed).
    Now because you all are so interested in this topic: You can also check out the J2b sample from Caspian steppe from the Caucaus paper KDC001.

    Anyway that one comes from central Kazakhstan and dates to 1600-1400 BCE so again hardly a source for Yamna PIE
    The single Steppe_MLBA I2a sample in that paper should be from Yamnaya so I don't exclude the J2 sample to be a relict from Yamna too.
    I find a female mediated CHG-Iran admix for unlikely for the reasons described. So I try to find which Y-DNA is present in the steppe. If I see that from all CHG-Iran related Y-DNA linages only J2 is a presence (very minor one), it becomes a candidate for a non-female-mediated explanation.
    We also have the explanation that the R1b linage of Yamnaya is from south of the Caucasus originally and was enriched with CHG-Iran admixture there already. But this explanation at this point is ranked 3rd, below brides-from-Caucasus while for me on top is a migration with CHG-Iran related Y-DNA which then became extinct.

    @Kopfjäger

    The onus is on you to provide proof since you're making that assertion. If J2 brought PIE to the Steppe, what happened to it? Wouldn't we see the exact opposite of what we're seeing now? Majority J2 on the Steppe?

    This is so silly! Lol
    Yes silly because I have not claimed that J2 was the source for CHG-Iran in Yamna. I consider it a possibility at this point, nothing more.
    It's you that has made final conclusions such as "CHG-Iran is female mediated". No, this is a open question at this time.


    @Generalissimo

    I don't have to request a correction, because that J2 sample isn't classified nor labeled as Steppe_MLBA in the paper. It's classified as an outlier from Turan.

    This sample has nothing to do with the formation of Steppe_MLBA, with Yamnaya, Maykop or even the Pontic steppe. It's too young and obviously a migrant from Turan to the Kazakh steppe.

    You're a troll.
    No, look at the link, it has no _o suffix and is in the Steppe_MLBA group. So if you have found a description in the supplementary materials that it is from Turan, write the authors and request a correction of that graphic.
    You are sure about its Turan origin and I find it likely too but do not exclude a Pontic steppe origin (like the I2a sample). If its so important to you and you are so sure about it, write the authors and request a correction and call them trolls or whatever.
    Last edited by Patarames; 07-20-2018 at 06:23 AM.

  6. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    No, look at the link, it has no _o suffix and is in the Steppe_MLBA group. So if you have found a description in the supplementary materials that it is from Turan, write the authors and request a correction of that graphic.
    I don't care about that because in the paper this sample isn't used as part of the Steppe_MLBA_West or Steppe_MLBA_East clusters, and instead described as an outlier: a recent migrant from the south.

    Supp info, page 156, only Taldysay_MLBA1 is used as part of the Steppe_MLBA_East group.

    Steppe_MLBA_West: Sintashta_MLBA, Srubnaya, Petrovka, Maitan_MLBA_Alakul, Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul, Karagash_MLBA, Kairan_MLBA, Aktogai_MLBA, Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1,

    Steppe_MLBA_East: Krasnoyarsk_MLBA, Dali_MBA, Kazakh_Mys_MLBA, Kyzlbulak_MLBA1, Oi_Dzhailau_MLBA, Taldysay_MLBA1, Zevakinskiy_MLBA, Ferghana_MLBA, Satan_MLBA_Alakul

    You are sure about its Turan origin and I find it likely too but do not exclude a Pontic steppe origin (like the I2a sample). If its so important to you and you are so sure about it, write the authors and request a correction and call them trolls or whatever.
    What the hell does this sample have to do with the Pontic steppe and I2a? Nothing.

    You're taking advantage of a technicality to push an agenda. You have no real argument.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 07-20-2018 at 10:33 AM.

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  8. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There is no way Iran_N and CHG diverged 20Kya ago yet cluster so close together , they are essentially a similar continuum of people with minor differences and also for the peoples of that time I don't think geopolitical boundaries really mattered, the fact is the Imereti culture associated with CHG is derived from Zarzian in what is now Northern Iran. Though I agree that CHG/Iran_N in Anatolia is NOT a marker for Steppe , that would have to be some level of EHG involved, as PIE ultimately comes from Yamna or regions to NE towards the Urals/Steppe.
    I am sorry, but you should read the papers (mainly, Gallego-Llorente et al. 2016, Damgaard et al. 2018 and Wang et al. 2018). Damgaard et al. dating the divergence between Kotias and the CHG-like component in Yamnaya to 27kya (with a possible more extent datation but they do not put too much amphize on this, and used 27 kya in the text).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Kotias is from 7,700 BC...so he's about 10,000 years old. So you're saying Iranian Neolithic diverged from CHG/ Kotias 10,000 years before Kotias.

    Just curious but where are you getting these dating methods from?

    All I'll say is on PCA and various ADMIXTURE charts CHG and Iranian Neolithic look almost the same.
    Specifically about Iran_N, if I may:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31326
    "GD13a did not undergo a recent large population bottleneck. (A) GD13a has similar runs
    of homozygosity (ROH) lengths to Neolithic individuals, while Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (Kotias and
    Satsurblia), like European Hunter Gatherers (Loschbour and Bichon), underwent recent large population
    bottlenecks potentially associated with the LGM
    . (B ) Map showing geographical location of Anatolian Neolithic
    samples, Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG) and GD13a."

    And since LGM reached its peak around 26/27 kya.....

    Mind that I am mainly quoting those papers. My sole add-on is about Damgaard et al. since they didn't take into account the European Farmers admixture in Yamnaya (whith likely a higher divergence date than it should be).

    I have no personal opinion on dating those divergence events.

    My only contribution is about Mt haplogroups found in Steppe/Caucasus and especially about U4, since Steppe and Caucasus are falling in 2 different subclades which could be roughly dated, with the older dated to around 9000 years ago, so given that U4 is dated to around 15 000 years ago, a divergence between CHG related admixture found in Caucasus Eneolithic and Steppe Eneolithic dated to between 15 000 and 9 000 years ago (Younger Dryas could therefore be an explanation to this divergence).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 07-20-2018 at 09:32 AM.

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  10. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    I think you should accept the label CHG-Iran admixture like used in the recent papers. If Kotias is 20kya apart from Iran_N and both are called the same CHG-Iran then the related admixture in Yamnaya should also be no issue. Important for such labels is that they don't get mistaken for something else and because there is no such risk just calling it CHG-Iran admixture is acceptable for me.
    It is leading you to some midundertanding. But do as you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    That is a interesting approach for dating. However U4 plays a rather minor role in the Caucasus paper samples. It is only present in Catacomb culture samples, all other steppe related samples lack it.
    You should read the supplements, and take a look at all the Ukraine Neolithic, Eneolithic, and Steppe samples they are refering to. Dozens of them. And some are U4a.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    We can confidently say that the Yamnaya admixture event took place before ANF admixture arrived in the Caucasus with the Caucasian Neolithic (?). Actually I would expect that the Yamnaya admixture event is connected with metallurgy because there must have been a reason for this CHG-Iran expansion. We know that the admixture event took place after 4500BC at which point ANF admixture hat already arrived in the Neolithic.
    Yamnaya is the result of Steppe Eneolithic (EHG+CHG-like) + LN European admixture. Possibly connected to metallurgy (found earlier in Europe than in Middle East), but it would mean from the West, not from the Caucasus.

    From archeology, we know that Neolithic was brought in the Caucasus by migrants from the South around 6000 BC, with propably partial cultural diffusion in some areas (North Caucasus/Georgia). As I said Caucasus Eneolithic which is a mix of CHG and Anatolian_N (or something very similar) is not showing recent admixture, and is perfectly coherent with the result of Neolithization found in archeologic sites in South Caucasus. So the result of a older admixture event, likely during the VIth millenium BC. 1000 years before Steppe Eneolithic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    The use of mtDNA would be helpful to assess the brides from Caucasus theory and there I see too much steppe related mtDNA (foremost U5 at ~ 25%) to explain the ~ 50:50 ratio of Yamnaya. It may be simplistic but for a 50:50 ratio almost every R1b steppe male must have taken a near to pure CHG-Iran female. This means a mtDNA profile that is lets say 50% steppe related and 50% Caucasus requires some complex selection phenomenons to make sense while a >80% Caucasus mtDNA scenario would instantly make sense.
    So I don't expect brides from Caucasus to make much sense, the Yamna EHG/CHG-Iran admixture case will likely become quite a mystery which only more samples can solve.
    Steppe Eneolothic and EBA are not 50% from the Caucasus. CHG-like autosomal admixture is lower, and Steppe EMBA have some European Farmers admixture. So, the results are coherent: minor CHG-like admixture.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 07-20-2018 at 09:28 AM.

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  12. #347
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    FFoucart, trying to explain the current data and what it points to won't get you anywhere when you are arguing against those pushing an agenda. Those who have let things like nationalist ideas merge into their identity and feelings about their own history are always going to be around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    @jdean



    Now because you all are so interested in this topic: You can also check out the J2b sample from Caspian steppe from the Caucaus paper KDC001.



    The single Steppe_MLBA I2a sample in that paper should be from Yamnaya so I don't exclude the J2 sample to be a relict from Yamna too.
    I find a female mediated CHG-Iran admix for unlikely for the reasons described. So I try to find which Y-DNA is present in the steppe. If I see that from all CHG-Iran related Y-DNA linages only J2 is a presence (very minor one), it becomes a candidate for a non-female-mediated explanation.
    We also have the explanation that the R1b linage of Yamnaya is from south of the Caucasus originally and was enriched with CHG-Iran admixture there already. But this explanation at this point is ranked 3rd, below brides-from-Caucasus while for me on top is a migration with CHG-Iran related Y-DNA which then became extinct.

    @Kopfjäger



    Yes silly because I have not claimed that J2 was the source for CHG-Iran in Yamna. I consider it a possibility at this point, nothing more.
    It's you that has made final conclusions such as "CHG-Iran is female mediated". No, this is a open question at this time.


    @Generalissimo



    No, look at the link, it has no _o suffix and is in the Steppe_MLBA group. So if you have found a description in the supplementary materials that it is from Turan, write the authors and request a correction of that graphic.
    You are sure about its Turan origin and I find it likely too but do not exclude a Pontic steppe origin (like the I2a sample). If its so important to you and you are so sure about it, write the authors and request a correction and call them trolls or whatever.
    I2-M223 -L701/L801 (Yamnaya type) is actually found in European populations in appreciable quantity, from Ireland to Ukraine, so no, it's not the same at all. So while J2-L26 might correlate with Iran, Armenia, and Greece, it has nothing to do with the 3000 BC steppe populations.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
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    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  16. #349
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    So are we getting any new Mycenaean genomes soon?

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  18. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    female mediated CHG-Iran admixture [on the Steppe]
    This myth probably echoes some cultural practices and admixture events that were taking place there:

    The legend about Gargarians and Amazons: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11E*.html

    "The mountains above Albania" refer of course to Caucasian Albania and North Caucasus Mountains.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-13-2019 at 12:25 AM.

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