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Thread: Bell Beaker and U152

  1. #1
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    Bell Beaker and U152

    As mentioned previously in other posts, sample RISE563 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+. It was found in a Bell Beaker grave from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Unfortunately radiocarbon dates were not provided. A search for all known U152 subclades produced nothing. For the subclades directly below U152, we have the following calls/no-calls:

    L2?
    PF6658-
    Z36?
    Z56-
    16515046? 22478765?, 23059272?, 14141192?
    13680769- 16347817-
    21387964? 13668489-
    23505791? 7162203-

    Several years ago, I proposed on this and other forums that U152, and more specifically L2 was an important player in the Eastern Bell Beaker province, best know for its Begleitkeramik, or accompanying ware. This Bell Beaker province of course included Bavaria as well as Moravia and Bohemia. It also had a very large impact on Italian Bell Beakers. One of the things that stood out to me was that two papers (Magoon & Larmusea) had both singled out the star-like pattern of L2, meaning that this lineage produced a lot of successful lineages very rapidly. Now, the number of L2 subclades are even more impressive...with an outstanding 18 (not a typo) subclades known, and almost all of them have indistinguishable STR signatures from the rest of U152 or P312 for that matter. I would be shocked if further testing did not produce more than a fair share of L2+ results. The linguistic implication for U152 being found so early north of the Alps, but having its modern frequency peak on the southern side of the Alps, is that these were Italo-Celtic speakers. Hopefully we'll get many more samples in the future to see how my theory plays out.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-25-2015 at 02:10 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    For the subclades directly below U152, we have the following calls/no-calls:
    What about
    CTS2617 (14392649)
    CTS4562 (15714986)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    As mentioned previously in other posts, sample RISE564 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+. It was found in a Bell Beaker grave from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Unfortunately radiocarbon dates were not provided. A search for all known U152 subclades produced nothing. For the subclades directly below U152, we have the following calls/no-calls:

    L2?
    PF6658-
    Z36?
    Z56-
    16515046? 22478765?, 23059272?, 14141192?
    13680769- 16347817-
    21387964? 13668489-
    23505791? 7162203-

    Several years ago, I proposed on this and other forums that U152, and more specifically L2 was an important player in the Eastern Bell Beaker province, best know for its Begleitkeramik, or accompanying ware. This Bell Beaker province of course included Bavaria as well as Moravia and Bohemia. It also had a very large impact on Italian Bell Beakers. One of the things that stood out to me was that two papers (Magoon & Larmusea) had both singled out the star-like pattern of L2, meaning that this lineage produced a lot of successful lineages very rapidly. Now, the number of L2 subclades are even more impressive...with an outstanding 18 (not a typo) subclades known, and almost all of them have indistinguishable STR signatures from the rest of U152 or P312 for that matter. I would be shocked if further testing did not produce more than a fair share of L2+ results. The linguistic implication for U152 being found so early north of the Alps, but having its modern frequency peak on the southern side of the Alps, is that these were Italo-Celtic speakers. Hopefully we'll get many more samples in the future to see how my theory plays out.
    We are in full agreement here, I've also been saying this ever since I learned about U152's phylogeographic pattern. Things are looking good for your theory, that's for sure!
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    What about
    CTS2617 (14392649)
    CTS4562 (15714986)
    All of the known SNPs below U152 were either negative or no calls.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    We are in full agreement here, I've also been saying this ever since I learned about U152's phylogeographic pattern. Things are looking good for your theory, that's for sure!
    One thing that is important to note regarding Bell Beaker at the Sion site is that the first materials point at the Rhone-Rhine group (which should be called the Rhone group IMO), and then the material becomes much more influenced by the Eastern Bell Beaker group. Not sure how this played out in Bavaria though.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    As mentioned previously in other posts, sample RISE564 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+.
    Wasn't that RISE563? http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post90402

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Yes, I put the wrong sample to see if anyone would notice it

    All kidding aside, I just corrected it to RISE563. Thanks for catching it.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-25-2015 at 07:22 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I was just trying to get a RISE out of you. You know me.

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    I don't mean to derail this thread, but it puts me in mind of a possible parallel or analogous situation elsewhere that it serves to illustrate. Our first Beaker result downstream of P312 is U152. Let's suppose we bag a few more of those Beaker U152 results before anything else shows up. No doubt some will seize upon them to maintain that Beaker was exclusively U152, therefore DF27, L21 and the rest were all probably Basques (you know the old story).

    It won't matter that it is likely that DF27, L21, and probably much of the rest of P312 were spread by Beaker people, or that the Italo-Celtic speaking beat extended well to the west of Germany and Italy.

    The parallel I see is with the current situation with Yamnaya and R1b-Z2103, i.e., Z2103 is Indo-European, but the rest of R1b-L23 are Basques.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-25-2015 at 04:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I don't mean to derail this thread, but it puts me in mind of a possible parallel or analogous situation elsewhere that it serves to illustrate. Our first Beaker result downstream of P312 is U152. Let's suppose we bag a few more of those Beaker U152 results before anything else shows up. No doubt some will seize upon them to maintain that Beaker was exclusively U152, therefore DF27, L21 and the rest were all probably Basques (you know the old story).

    It won't matter that it is likely that DF27, L21, and probably much of the rest of P312 were spread by Beaker people, or that the Italo-Celtic speaking beat extended well to the west of Germany and Italy.

    The parallel I see is with the current situation with Yamnaya and R1b-Z2103, i.e., Z2103 is Indo-European, but the rest of R1b-L23 are Basques.
    If more evidence linking R1a, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152 to Indo-European come by way of ancient DNA, then I don't see how DF27 and L21 cannot be considered Indo-European as well. That is not to say that some subclades could not have entered a valley here or there and taken up the local language, like in the case of Basque and some DF27. If R-L21 splits still point to a Rhenish Beaker origin, then I don't see an issue with it never having spoken a non-IE language.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-25-2015 at 11:18 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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