Earliest R-Z284 offshoot is Polish?

[lgmayka]

YFull's R-Z284 haplotree estimates its TMRCA at 4200 ybp. Here are the four subclades and their TMRCAs:

YP1368 : no TMRCA estimate, only one customer sample
YP556 : 3500 ybp
Z287 : 3800 ybp
S4458 : 4100 ybp

Thus, of the three estimated clades, S4458 apparently expanded first.

However, R-S4458 has only one subclade, R-S5301. The latter's TMRCA is only 3300 ybp. R-S4458 is listed as a separate level, and has a TMRCA of 4100 ybp, only because of a single R-S4458*, YF03538. But this is kit 265538 from Poland!

Do we know of any other R-S4458(xS5301) examples?

[Michał]

Do we know of any other R-S4458(xS5301) examples?

BISDNA has reported one sample (#389) that tested S4458+ S5301-. He was also found positive for at least two downstream SNPs known as S6285 and S6290 (there is a possibility that these are his private SNPs). Unfortunately, I don't know his place of origin.

BTW, is this Polish lineage not an early S4458 offshoot (rather than Z284, as suggested by the title of this thread)?

[lgmayka]

BISDNA has reported one sample (#389) that tested S4458+ S5301-. He was also found positive for at least two downstream SNPs known as S6285 and S6290 (there is a possibility that these are his private SNPs). Unfortunately, I don't know his place of origin.

Our kit 265538 tested S6285+ S6290+ also.

BTW, is this Polish lineage not an early S4458 offshoot (rather than Z284, as suggested by the title of this thread)?

More specifically yes, but my point was that it diverged from the rest of Z284 earlier than the TMRCAs of any of the three well-known subclades (YP556, Z287, and S5301).

[Artmar]

There are some particularly interesting Z284 clades in other places, like Switzerland (Harnisch and Waldmeier from our project, reported by Underhill in his thesis as well), Spain(some Z287 - Del Toro, Z284 - Gutierrez?, Espinosa?). Underhill reported one Z284 in Slovenia and Estonia. There are Tatar Z284 samples - one is under L448, so relatively young, I guess. But still, I wonder what's the source in every individual case. The plain guess is "Vikings", but does it always apply? I doubt that.

[Paul_Johnsen]

Clearly Z284 isn't synonyms with vikings, both age and distribution (many of the places you mentioned and also Bavarian Z284) clearly shows that it couldn't have expanded during the viking age exclusively.

[Magnus]

Hi all,
I googled on R-S4458 and found this thread. I find it very interesting since I tested the new R-YP4638 which I share with a polish guy. I'm a swede maybe I should add, YF04507 in yfull.
I also have the SNPs S6290 and S6285 that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
I'm curious what you think about this after the updates that has been done in yfull lately. E.g. the time estimates for "formed" is changed.
BR/Magnus

[lgmayka]

I find it very interesting since I tested the new R-YP4638 which I share with a polish guy.

The TMRCA of your two lineages is estimated by YFull at 2500 ybp.

Interestingly, this is very close to the TMRCA of N-M2783 (2600 ybp), which also seems to present a Scandinavian-Baltic connection.

Compare also with the TMRCA of R-L257 (2800 ybp), which also suggests a connection between (what are now) the Baltic countries and Scandinavia (+ British Isles).

And what about I-M227 (TMRCA 2800 ybp), which also shows a Baltic-Scandinavian connection? (Could the Palestinian in that tree descend from a British Crusader?)

Note that of these four subclades, N-M2783 was far more prolific than the others.

Note that some people would add 10-20% to YFull's age numbers.

[lyakh]

So maybe these clades (R-YP4638, R-L257, I-M227) have connection to Baltic peoples? Maybe they have something to do with forming ethnos of Balts and their languages? First members of these clades quite possibly were (proto)-Germanics - I1, R1b-U106 and R1a-Z284 are now characteristic for Germanic people.