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Thread: DYS391=9 in R1b

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    DYS391=9 in R1b

    I did a Y-DNA37 test out of idle curiosity on one of my good friends and he got a rare 9 for DYS391. Other people with his surname also have 9 so it's not a lab error or anything like that. He only has a handful of matches, most of whom are his surname and are also DYS391=9. One of his matches was confirmed M269, and he and his surname matches are also predicted M269, it will just be interesting to see where he winds up beneath M269. He has a 12 marker match with a different surname confirmed L21 but nothing further, but of course that could just be coincidence. I just added him to the R1b subclades project and we'll probably do further testing down the road. Looks like the handful of R1b DYS391=9s are scattered around the various subclades so no obvious clues there. His origins are British as far as I know, his surname is an English word. Here is his full 37 marker haplotype if anyone wants to speculate:

    Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
    Value 13 24 14 9 12-14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    PANEL 2 (13-25)
    Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
    Value 17 9-10 11 11 24 14 19 30 15-16-16-17
    PANEL 3 (26-37)
    Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
    Value 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 14 38-39 13 12

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    I have 9 for DYS391 and have been looking for fellow matches for a decade. Most of those I have come across have turned out to be DF27 like me, but that may be more a function of my looking too close to home in the projects that I am involved in. Interestingly he also shares my 14,30 at DYS389i,ii which makes him one of my closest looking matches at 12 markers before diverging a bit more from 13-37.

    If he has exact 12 matches with an L21 individual however, I might lean in that direction given the rare off-modal markers. Who are his closest matches at 37 markers? If he starts to lean toward DF27 men at 37 then I would look more toward DF27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogogenes View Post
    I have 9 for DYS391 and have been looking for fellow matches for a decade.
    I only see four guys in the DF27 project with 391=9. Only one of them matches gogogenes at DYS389; the rest (with the same surname, McCauley) are -- or should be, after test results arrive -- in the Rox2 cluster, group Na. There is also one member of our group F (L881+) who has DYS391=8, an even rarer value.

    In that gogogenes doesn't plot close to these other guys on Alex Williamson's Big Tree, my take is that DYS391=9 is fairly rare, but not specific to a subclade (and therefore, maybe not phylogenetically informative). If it's stable within your "family," it helps you find matches -- but, against high odds. It doesn't really reveal your ancient genetic lineage from the steppe, or whatever.

    Btw gogo, do you know about the Big Tree? You have some company, on a branch. Probably I should create a group for you guys and get you out of group Aaa. But a good many of the unusual SNPs with which Alex draws his tree are on palindromes, or otherwise not accepted by others who draw trees (ISOGG, YFull, FTDNA). One gets a bit of pushback, one way or the other. I'm wrong if I do, and wrong if I don't, look at those SNPs. (In your case ZZ12, ZZ19/20, Z31644, Z37492.) http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29
    Last edited by razyn; 07-03-2015 at 08:41 PM.

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    Oddly enough, one of my friend's matches at 37 markers is a McCauley but their most distant direct paternal ancestor is listed with a different surname so that is probably a red herring,. My friend is matching with someone at 33/37 with the same surname as the L21 person even though he doesn't match with that person specifically at 37 so I'll probably test L21 at some point and go from there.

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    Thanks, I check the Big Tree almost every day to see if there are any new additions or changes. I guess I am a little obsessive.

    I should have mentioned that the other DF27's who share 391=9 were already on different branches and it is likely that there is a scattering of men with that result throughout R1b. Indeed, I use to keep a database compiled from different projects and ysearch and there were many who were R-P312 like me but turned out to be L21. That's when I gave up that line of pursuit for my own family research, although I still visually skim the new additions in projects for any new 391=9's.

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    There are 7 men in one subsection of the MacAuley Project who have DYS391=9. One has a different surname. Two of them (both McCauley) are tested FGC111397+. As far as they've tested, they're all perfect matches -- except 342681, my brother, who has DYS439=13. I suspect they should probably all be in the DF27 (Rox2) group, but only 2-3 of them have joined the DF27 project. We know for a fact that 5 of these men are descended from the same man. Another seems certain he is not descended from that man. The man with the different surname hasn't been figured out yet.

    They have several (10?) common matches in a different subsection of the MacAuley Project. Two of them have tested FGC11397+. None of them have DYS391=9.

    My brother is in the Big Tree with HG00107 at FGC11388.

    kathy
    Last edited by GoofusBroadway; 07-13-2015 at 02:13 PM.

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    My friend's sample came back today as L21+, I've added him to the L21 project (333094). I've been looking through the L21+ project for other DYS391 people and thought it was interesting that 4 of the DF13-/DF63- people are also DYS391=9, though they all have variations of the same surname. There are a few in FGC5494 and Z253 and some who haven't done much testing. I might comb through some of the subclade projects and see if any patterns emerge there. I'll just wait to do more testing on him until the FTDNA L21 panel materializes or BigY becomes more affordable, I have other friends and family who I need to test for things.

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    Ordered the new FTDNA L21 panel for my friend, it will be interesting to see where he turns up. I perused the STR haplotypes in the L21 project again today to see if there were any new clues but there were not, so with his general western European background he could really be anything. Right now only 12 others in the L21 project are DYS391=9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntergatherer1066 View Post
    Ordered the new FTDNA L21 panel for my friend, it will be interesting to see where he turns up. I perused the STR haplotypes in the L21 project again today to see if there were any new clues but there were not, so with his general western European background he could really be anything. Right now only 12 others in the L21 project are DYS391=9.
    He came back as Z253+ (L226-, Z2185-) so henceforth I'll post about him in that subforum. I also heard back from his parents regarding their genealogical records and it turns out their origins go back to the Burnley area of Lancashire, which is an area with a higher concentration of Nutters (one of Pendle witches, as well as some of their purported victims were also Nutters).

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