Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 58

Thread: Origin(s) of Y-DNA J

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,302
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man

    Origin(s) of Y-DNA J

    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    We now know that some J was present in Neolithic Europe even though it seems to have been a minor lineage among the EEF population and may have still arrived later than G2a
    J2 really looks like a newcomer at this point... Considering all the Neolithic samples we have now, the fact that J2 shows up only twice (and in a Middle-Late Neolithic context) is quite telling, especially if we take all the theories which linked its spread to the Neolithic into account. I mean, we even managed to find R1b in a Neolithic context before stumbling on J2! J wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, that's for sure, and I seriously doubt J1 will even be found in Europe prior to the Copper Age. In the same way, it seems that the bulk of J2 expanded relatively late in Europe -mostly during the Bronze Age- but we'll need more samples from the Mediterranean and Near East to tell for sure.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-03-2015 at 05:22 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (09-01-2015),  Illyro-Vlach (07-03-2015),  Jean M (07-04-2015),  Mellifluous (09-02-2015),  NK19191 (07-04-2015),  paulgill (07-04-2015),  Power77 (08-31-2017)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,713
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a2 - FGS
    Y-DNA (M)
    ?
    mtDNA (P)
    I2

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    We now know that some J was present in Neolithic Europe even though it seems to have been a minor lineage among the EEF population and may have still arrived later than G2a
    I think the likeliest explanation is that it was part of a secondary wave that arrived very shortly after the first thrust by the G folks. Weren't the conclusions from a recent paper on NW Anatolian 'farmer' such that it was similar to the European LBK remains, but had more influence from a component more concentrated in the modern Mid East?
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 07-03-2015 at 05:23 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (07-04-2015)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,786

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    J2 really looks like a newcomer at this point... Considering all the Neolithic samples we have now, the fact that J2 shows up only twice (and in a Middle-Late Neolithic context) is quite telling, especially if we take all the theories which linked its spread to the Neolithic into account. I mean, we even managed to find R1b in a Neolithic context before stumbling on J2! J wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, that's for sure, and I seriously doubt J1 will even be found in Europe prior to the Copper Age. In the same way, it seems that the bulk of J2 expanded relatively late in Europe -mostly during the Bronze Age- but we'll need more samples from the Mediterranean and Near East to tell for sure.
    I seriously doubt it. Europe (incld. Anatolia) looks to be as good as any location as the birth of IJ and its descendants. J just has a SE spread from the birth region and I a NE one. F* itself now looks to be a European lineage, though perhaps all these European finds are skewing my perception!

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (07-04-2015),  SakaDo (01-21-2020)

  7. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,302
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I seriously doubt it. Europe (incld. Anatolia) looks to be as good as any location as the birth of IJ and its descendants. J just has a SE spread from the birth region and I a NE one. F* itself now looks to be a European lineage, though perhaps all these European finds are skewing my perception!
    I think that's certainly the case here IJ emerging in SE Anatolia, the Transcaucasus or even on the Iranian plateau is possible but again, this is just an educated guess going from contemporary data. Judging from the enormous discrepancy between the theories which proposed a massive Neolithic arrival for J2 in Europe and the actual number of J2 samples found in a Neolithic context to date (*cough* only two samples *cough*) I'd say it's particularly unwise to see J2 (let alone J as a whole) as a major Neolithic lineage, in fact I'd go as far as to say that J deserves the "stealthiest Neolithic marker" merit badge hands down
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     ADW_1981 (07-03-2015),  Illyro-Vlach (07-03-2015),  Jean M (07-04-2015),  paulgill (07-04-2015),  Power77 (08-31-2017)

  9. #5
    J Man
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I think that's certainly the case here IJ emerging in SE Anatolia, the Transcaucasus or even on the Iranian plateau is possible but again, this is just an educated guess going from contemporary data. Judging from the enormous discrepancy between the theories which proposed a massive Neolithic arrival for J2 in Europe and the actual number of J2 samples found in a Neolithic context to date (*cough* only two samples *cough*) I'd say it's particularly unwise to see J2 (let alone J as a whole) as a major Neolithic lineage, in fact I'd go as far as to say that J deserves the "stealthiest Neolithic marker" merit badge hands down
    Well it certainly does not look like J was a major player among the earliest Neolithic groups that first expanded into Europe. They are solidly dominated by G2a. J really still is quite a mystery overall.

  10. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-03-2015),  Anglecynn (07-03-2015),  Illyro-Vlach (07-03-2015),  paulgill (07-04-2015),  Power77 (08-31-2017)

  11. #6
    J Man
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I think the likeliest explanation is that it was part of a secondary wave that arrived very shortly after the first thrust by the G folks. Weren't the conclusions from a recent paper on NW Anatolian 'farmer' such that it was similar to the European LBK remains, but had more influence from a component more concentrated in the modern Mid East?
    Yes that could be case at least to some degree.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (07-04-2015)

  13. #7
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,302
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Well it certainly does not look like J was a major player among the earliest Neolithic groups that first expanded into Europe. They are solidly dominated by G2a. J really still is quite a mystery overall.
    We are in full agreement here.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (07-04-2015),  Power77 (08-31-2017)

  15. #8
    J Man
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    We are in full agreement here.
    Both J1 and J2 were probably further to the East and maybe South as well when the early Neolithic farmers dominated by G2a began expanding into Europe.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-03-2015),  paulgill (07-04-2015),  Power77 (08-31-2017)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,015
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    I think J was located more to the Anatolian NW towards the Caspian Sea and J1 was more to the East than J2 because J1 is the majority in Eastern Caucasus. J and specially J2 branched earlier and more vigourosly and dispersed with several small ancient branches. It is frequent to find several J1 and J2 branches older than 15000 years and only a few moved to the SW in direction to the Levant and Arabia where they have younger branches with high proportions in the local populations.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (07-04-2015),  SakaDo (01-21-2020)

  19. #10
    J Man
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    I think J was located more to the Anatolian NW towards the Caspian Sea and J1 was more to the East than J2 because J1 is the majority in Eastern Caucasus. J and specially J2 branched earlier and more vigourosly and dispersed with several small ancient branches. It is frequent to find several J1 and J2 branches older than 15000 years and only a few moved to the SW in direction to the Levant and Arabia where they have younger branches with high proportions in the local populations.
    J2 is dominant among the Ingush and Chechens and they are Northeast Caucasian people who border on Dagestan.

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-03-2015),  King (08-31-2015),  paulgill (07-04-2015),  Power77 (08-31-2017)

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Origin of E-V65
    By Ibn Ali1174 in forum E
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-27-2020, 08:23 PM
  2. X2M'N Origin?
    By Maximilian in forum X
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-06-2017, 08:44 PM
  3. Ancestral origin and Haplogroup origin
    By Smilelover in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-17-2016, 10:26 AM
  4. Origin of E ?
    By #YoloSwag in forum E
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 08-16-2016, 12:28 PM
  5. DE/YAP+ origin?
    By Ezana in forum Other
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-14-2012, 03:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •