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Thread: Y-DNA Haplogroup J and WHG-UHG Type Ancestry In The Near East

  1. #1
    J Man
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    Y-DNA Haplogroup J and WHG-UHG Type Ancestry In The Near East

    I think that there is a possibility Y-DNA haplogroup J may be linked to the WHG-UHG like component that is present among Near Easterners since in Europe it is Y-DNA haplogroup I that is linked to the original WHG population and we know that haplogroup J is distantly related to I as both come from IJ. Of course this could also be wrong though and we need ancient DNA from the Near East to solve this.

    Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I think that there is a possibility Y-DNA haplogroup J may be linked to the WHG-UHG like component that is present among Near Easterners since in Europe it is Y-DNA haplogroup I that is linked to the original WHG population and we know that haplogroup J is distantly related to I as both come from IJ. Of course this could also be wrong though and we need ancient DNA from the Near East to solve this.

    Thoughts?
    How could J not be WHG-related? K has been found in 2/2 over 40,000 years old Crown Eurasians and WHGs belonged to I.

    My guess is:
    IJK is a Crown Eurasian lineage. P(R, Q) became an "ANE" lineage while it's brothers became East Asian, etc. lineages. IJ became an "WHG" branch. LT is another Crown Eurasian lineage, maybe from "WHGs".

    G, H, and E are Basal Eurasian lineages.
    Last edited by Krefter; 07-05-2015 at 02:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    How could J not be WHG-related? K has been found in 2/2 over 40,000 years old Crown Eurasians and WHGs belonged to I.

    My guess is:
    IJK is a Crown Eurasian lineage. P(R, Q) became an "ANE" lineage while it's brothers became East Asian, etc. lineages. IJ became an "WHG" branch. LT is another Crown Eurasian lineage, maybe from "WHGs".

    G, H, and E are Basal Eurasian lineages.

    I don't think that works out with regards to the phylogenetic tree. What about the West-Eurasian node from which WHG and ANE evolved? IJ and P(Q, R) are West-Eurasian, but haplogroups in between are either Crown-Eurasian (K) or East-Eurasian (NO). And some C carriers, like the ancestors of Kostenki 14 and La-Brana, might also be related to that West-Eurasian node? And how is E connected to G and H?

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    In my opinion L and T is absolutely Basal Euroasian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    How could J not be WHG-related? K has been found in 2/2 over 40,000 years old Crown Eurasians and WHGs belonged to I.

    My guess is:
    IJK is a Crown Eurasian lineage. P(R, Q) became an "ANE" lineage while it's brothers became East Asian, etc. lineages. IJ became an "WHG" branch. LT is another Crown Eurasian lineage, maybe from "WHGs".

    G, H, and E are Basal Eurasian lineages.
    Only E is Basal (West) Eurasian, all other Y-DNA hgs are Crown Eurasian (except D, which could be named as Basal East Eurasian according to evidence from Jomon aDNA).

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    By this logic, WHG has to have something more basal to it, explaining why it has close ties with ANE while ANE (R ydna) keeps closer ties uniparentally with NO (East Asians).
    So, I and J-bearing WHG(/UHG) should be substantially mixed with something close to R-bearing ANE in order to make sense of NO's close ties with R.

    Just pure speculation.

    The rest of the picture is probably even more complicated, with C being present in WHG, D being closely related to [African/West Eurasian] E and mostly carried by East Eurasians now and G making most of the Neolithic Farmer samples from Europe.

    What is sure is IJK, and probably K was already widespread in [northern?] Eurasia by the time of Oase and Mal'ta and the modern diversity of K is centered in Southeast Asia. Lives little space for G and H.
    Last edited by Ignis90; 07-05-2015 at 04:30 PM.
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
    Hidden Content

    Lactase Persistence (LP)
    13910: TT (rs4988235 AA)
    22018: AA (rs182549 TT)

    (my mother's LP: same results)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignis90 View Post
    By this logic, WHG has to have something more basal to it, explaining why it has close ties with ANE while ANE (R ydna) keeps closer ties uniparentally with NO (East Asians).
    So, I and J-bearing WHG(/UHG) should be substantially mixed with something close to R-bearing ANE in order to make sense of NO's close ties with R.
    Y DNA doesn't have to match up perfectly with autosomal DNA. P, IJ could have both been in people who were neither East or West Eurasian, in people like Ust Ishim. There were various orignal non-African lineages which existed in early West and East Eurasians. Some East Asian lineages are more related to West Eurasian lineages than to other East Asians lineages and vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Y DNA doesn't have to match up perfectly with autosomal DNA. P, IJ could have both been in people who were neither East or West Eurasian, in people like Ust Ishim. There were various orignal non-African lineages which existed in early West and East Eurasians. Some East Asian lineages are more related to West Eurasian lineages than to other East Asians lineages and vice versa.
    That's also what I think, considering how old K is. But then there is no reason to link J to WHG/UHG since modern carriers of J in the Middle East and NE/East Africa (and Soqotra too I guess) do not have a particularly high affinity to WHG.

    J is more likely to be linked to Basal Eurasians in the Near East and Africa based on the modern frequency of J1 while J2 a Near Eastern ancestry with a more Eurasian flavor (maybe a secondary neolithic dispersal?).
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
    Hidden Content

    Lactase Persistence (LP)
    13910: TT (rs4988235 AA)
    22018: AA (rs182549 TT)

    (my mother's LP: same results)

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    J could be associated with UHG or proto-WHG, but I don't think that a distant relation with I conclusively establishes that to be the case. It would depend on how long ago I and J split, it might not be completely proto-WHG related and might have been diversifying in the Middle East long enough to be implicated in the diffusion of mostly Basal Eurasian with some proto-WHG, whereas E might be entirely Basal Eurasian in the Middle East.

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    A thought just occurred to me, there is an unknown variant and possibly ancient subclade of J found in Socotra known as J*. If J, like I, is associated with WHG, could the original J carriers resembled the native Socotris? Considering that the ancient European hunter-gatherers were known to be darker skinned, could those same J bearers also be dark skinned? If J is a proto-WHG or UHG marker, then I strongly suspect this to be the case.

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