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Thread: What is EHG/ Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    The very fact that the autosomal ANE/EHG profile did not become extinct during the Late Dryas, but rather survived and formed subsequent autosomal profiles, for example, the steppe autosomal profile already refutes all these fantastic hypotheses about complete extinction.
    What "fantastic hypothesis about complete extinction"?
    That of european tigers, lions, cave-bears, elephants, mammoths and wolly rhinos?

    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Let's take at least a sample of PES001 with an age of 10700 years BC almost in the Far North. Even in this region at that time there were people living. Naturally people lived in more southern latitudes
    1. You better check the "calibration" of that date - as it falls within the 'time-platau' of the very Younger Dryas.
    2. If you read what I actually wrote you may have noted that there actually did exist a climatic refugia connected to the North Sea/Baltic waters - d-u-r-i-n-g the Younger Dryas. Otherwise there would be no known refugias to maintain the life of 'arctically adapted' populations of people - to domesticate the deer, elks, horses, hogs and oxes that also survived, within the very same refugia.

    The offsprings of these ice-age survivors obviously reproduced the genome they inheritted from their palaeolithic ancestors - in the various branches of 'founding fathers' and 'stem-mothers' that came out of the bottle-neck.

    Besides the impact of the Gulf-stream producing this refugia we have no example of "people" that "lived in more southern latitudes" - during this critical period. Better have a reality-check.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The Malta Buret culture may or may not have disappeared without leaving any direct descendants. The point is that either Malta or a different but genetically identical culture from the same general area(i.e. southern Siberia/Mongolia/northern Central Asia) impacted the make-up of people as diverse as Native Americans, South/Central Asians, and Europeans. Arguing about who it was exactly is hairsplitting but the fact that a group of people from deep within northern Asia provided genetic input that is now widespread in modern populations is not debatable.
    The question is when this impact started.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post

    They were their own group. No other is needed. The Iranian HGs Im referring to are Hotu hunter gatherers.
    That spark new questions - like:
    1. What population do you actually refer to, known to have survived the LGM and the YD in the Caspian depression, aka northern Iran?
    2. How old is the oldest known samples of y-dna J?
    3. Where did the mesolithic y-dna - J appearing after the YD along the waterways from Carelia to Northern Iran - reaching the southbound rivers out of Himalaya - actually originate?!

    Same question we may ask regarding the mesolithic pioneers of a dyansty branching out of y-dna G, throughout the southbound waterways out of Anatolia, the Balkans, the Alps and the Pyrenees. You may note that both these dynasties - like the one of y-dna I re-populating northern Europe - appear as pioneering settlers repopulating post-glacial grounds in their distinctive regions during the very same period, known as the Early Mesolithic. Would that be a pure and plain accident?!
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-15-2021 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post

    Ah, so the old Solutrean hypothesis huh? Isn't it far more likely, and far more reasonable that it was actually a population from NE Siberia that moved into North America and settled it either by crossing the Bering land bridge or by utilizing boats along the coast than some obscure, unknown ancient group from Europe sailing all the way over to the east coast of north America? Especially considering that we have proof that the people of NE Siberia are far more genetically linked to Native Americans than ANY group of Europeans, ancient or alive.
    Read again - i did NOT exclude the eastern, Bering Strait connection. I just added the western one - as circum-polar archaeology have started to find the traces of an North-Atlantic "island-hopping" connected to the "Maritime Archaic" aka "The Red Paint People". You may google it and read up before jumping to conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post

    Okay, you need to provide actual sources to document this supposed near extinction of the human population at the very end of the LMG/Younger Dryas. I'm aware of the Toba extinction event and a few others but I can't find anything about an LGM/YD severe extinction on the scale that all human beings north of a particular latitude only continued to exist in one continent.
    Who said that no one survived the LGM and the YD in America?

    There's no doubt that several populations did, indeed, exist south of the Laurentian glacier and the high-arctic zone of paleolithic North-America. AFAIK there were 'archaic amerindians' running around the Gulf of Mexico while the Solutreans started exploring the patterns of the Gulf-stream that already then were circulating the North Atlantic.

    ---

    Regarding the effect of the Younger Dryas: A sudden fall in the MEDIAN temperature of 15* Celsius across the arctic/sub-arctic hemisphere - as messured by the GRIP core-samples - is worse than decimating, its extinctive. The climate-crisis of the LGM is pretty well documented, as seals and pinguins roamed the Adriatic Sea, thanks to the constant sea-ice of the Venetian Bay. Today the later climate-crisis of the Younger Dryas is known to have been even worse, evene far worse, to all larger life-forms of the northern hemisphere - such as threes and mammals. Today this catastrophe is also pretty well documented as 2/3 of the paleolithic mammals went extinct - leaving only high-arctic animals and plants, like reindeer and reindeer-orchids (Dryas) to roam the tundra that spread along southern and western Europe. From where the survivng threes and mammals later found back to Eastern Europe and the colder parts of Eurasia, north of the 4Oth latitude, aparently.

    Perhaps this link may help you find the right searh-words to explore this further:
    https://beta.capeia.com/planetary-sc...r-dryas-impact
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-15-2021 at 07:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    What "fantastic hypothesis about complete extinction"?
    That of european tigers, lions, cave-bears, elephants, mammoths and wolly rhinos?



    1. You better check the "calibration" of that date - as it falls within the 'time-platau' of the very Younger Dryas.
    2. If you read what I actually wrote you may have noted that there actually did exist a climatic refugia connected to the North Sea/Baltic waters - d-u-r-i-n-g the Younger Dryas. Otherwise there would be no known refugias to maintain the life of 'arctically adapted' populations of people - to domesticate the deer, elks, horses, hogs and oxes that also survived, within the very same refugia.

    The offsprings of these ice-age survivors obviously reproduced the genome they inheritted from their palaeolithic ancestors - in the various branches of 'founding fathers' and 'stem-mothers' that came out of the bottle-neck.

    Besides the impact of the Gulf-stream producing this refugia we have no example of "people" that "lived in more southern latitudes" - during this critical period. Better have a reality-check.

    The extinction of animal species is not the same as the extinction of the human population. After the disappearance of the mammoths, people hunted the northern and red deer, bison and wild horses. All this is well documented archaeologically. In the period 18000-16000 BC, the ANE population crossed the Urals and until the final Paleolithic it spread from the Urals to the Dnieper. During the Late Dryas period, this population moved even further south to the coast of the Azov and Black Seas, including the Crimea, where there are a large number of sites of the Final Paleolithic. Then, in the Early Mesolithic, this population spread across the Pontic steppe. The fact that no samples of ancient DNA have been examined at this time does not mean that there were no people in this region.

    "In the south of Eastern Europe, the following types of industries were identified in the Final Paleolithic: Epigravetta, Kamennobalkovskaya, Lingbi, Krasnoselskaya, Sviderskaya, Pozdnemolodovskaya, Shan-Kobinskaya, Tau-Bodrakskaya, Osokorovo-Rogalikskaya and Zimovnikovskaya, monuments of the Rogalik VII type (Leonova et al., 2006; Za-liznyak, 1998; Gorelik, 2002; Manko, 2009). The problem of their taxonomic status is a separate problem, but rather it is the differences in the level of archaeological cultures, since they are all based on a similar economic base, which is based on horse hunting (Gorelik, 2002; Leonova et al., 2006). Their diversity testifies to the strengthening of migration processes at the turn of the epochs, which can be traced throughout the territory of Eastern Europe. "
    SINITSYNA GALINA VASILYEVNA
    Senior Researcher of the Paleolithic Department of the Institute of the History of Material Culture of the Russian Academy of Sciences".

    At the end of the Middle Valdai (27-24 thousand years ago), there is a significant change in the entire archaeological picture on the territory of Eastern Europe: the cultures of the early Upper Paleolithic period disappear and the developed aurignacoid and gravettoid industries of the Middle Upper Paleolithic period spread.21 These changes have found their specific reflection in the north of the Urals. At the end of the Middle Valdai, the Early Upper Paleolithic industries also disappeared in the region, but this was not accompanied as in the center of the East The European plain, the appearance of sites in the region of the Middle Pore of the Upper Paleolithic, which, at least in part, should be associated with extremely unfavorable natural climatic conditions for human life that existed in the first half of the Late Valdai in the north of the Urals.22 It is possible that in the late Middle — first half of the Late Valdai there was a depopulation of the region, as evidenced by the absence of Paleolithic sites in the basins of the Pechora and Upper Kama in the chronological interval from 27 to 19 thousand years ago. A significant change in the direction of cultural relations and the complication of forms of ethno - cultural interactions occurred in the North of the Urals in the late and final Paleolithic (19-9.5 thousand years ago). Sites of the second stage of the development of the Ural culture (15-12. 5 thousand years ago) are already widespread throughout the world. Ural - from the North to the South. These are such sites as the Bear Cave, the V layer of the Bolshoy Glukhoy Grotto, the Ustkoyvinsky Cave, the Kotel Cave, the Kumyshanskaya Cave, the Bobylek Grotto, the Kulyurttamak Cave, the Sergeyevka 1 Cave, the Bayslantash Cave, the Kapova Cave, and the early Ignatievskaya Cave complex (Fig. 3, 20-42).27
    Sites of the Late or Final Paleolithic stage (11-9. 5 (?) thousand years AGO) were found in the Upper Kama basin, in the Southern Urals, and in the Bolshezemelskaya tundra (Chernyshov Ridge). These are the parking lots of Gornaya Talitsa, Stolbovaya grotto, UstPozhva II-VI, Gorka, Riazanovsky Log, the third cultural layer of the Bolshoy Glukhoy grotto, the late Ignatievskaya Cave complex, and the Pymva Shor I site (Fig. 3, 43-58). According to the main characteristics of the stone inventory complexes, the Late Paleolithic sites in the north-east of Europe are close to those of the Middle Pore of the Upper Paleolithic of Southern Siberia. These Siberian sites are characterized by the emergence of a small plate industry.33 The Early Sartan sites of this cultural and chronological group, located in the south of Western Siberia, are geographically closest to the Late Paleolithic monuments of the North - East of Europe. In recent years, the Kulbulak Upper Paleolithic culture of the Western Pamir has been distinguished in Central Asia by K. A. Ko - lobova TianShan.36 The characteristics of the stone inventory complexes of the stage of the existence of a developed culture (according to K. A. Kolobova, from 30 to 25 thousand years ago) have a significant similarity with the structure of the stone inventory complexes of the small-plate industries of Siberia and the early monuments of the Ural culture. The characteristic feature of the primary cleavage technique - the presence of carenoid nuclei - brings these monuments together. Similar products are found on the monuments of the Ural culture of the early stage of its existence (the parking lot named after him. Talitsky, Shirovano-in II) and the middle stage (Bayslantash, Sergeev-ka 2). A significant similarity can be traced in the structure of the gun complexes of the Kulbulak and Ural monuments.
    Pavlov P.Y. Doctor of Historical Sciences, Institute of Language, Literature and History, Komi Science Centre, Ural Branch of the RAS (Russia, Syktyvkar)

    Isn't this an archaeological confirmation of both the divergence of R1 and R2 and the subsequent movement of R1 to Europe and R2 to Central Asia?
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 05-15-2021 at 06:23 PM.

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    Pretty much every post-LGM sample we have has a surviving descendant post-YD.
    AG3 -> WSHG/Botai (~70%)
    GoyetQ_2 -> Portugal_Geometric_Mesolithic
    Taforalt -> IAM
    Bichon > Loschbour
    Satsurblia > Kotias
    UKY > Kolyma_meso
    PES001 > Karelia_HG
    I think that's just about every distinct population we have between LGM and YD outside the Americas, except Villabruna who does appear to be a dead-end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    The extinction of animal species is not the same as the extinction of the human population. After the disappearance of the mammoths, people hunted the northern and red deer, bison and wild horses. All this is well documented archaeologically. In the period 18000-16000 BC, the ANE population crossed the Urals and until the final Paleolithic it spread from the Urals to the Dnieper. During the Late Dryas period, this population moved even further south to the coast of the Azov and Black Seas, including the Crimea, where there are a large number of sites of the Final Paleolithic. Then, in the Early Mesolithic, this population spread across the Pontic steppe. The fact that no samples of ancient DNA have been examined at this time does not mean that there were no people in this region.

    "In the south of Eastern Europe, the following types of industries were identified in the Final Paleolithic: Epigravetta, Kamennobalkovskaya, Lingbi, Krasnoselskaya, Sviderskaya, Pozdnemolodovskaya, Shan-Kobinskaya, Tau-Bodrakskaya, Osokorovo-Rogalikskaya and Zimovnikovskaya, monuments of the Rogalik VII type (Leonova et al., 2006; Za-liznyak, 1998; Gorelik, 2002; Manko, 2009). The problem of their taxonomic status is a separate problem, but rather it is the differences in the level of archaeological cultures, since they are all based on a similar economic base, which is based on horse hunting (Gorelik, 2002; Leonova et al., 2006). Their diversity testifies to the strengthening of migration processes at the turn of the epochs, which can be traced throughout the territory of Eastern Europe. "
    SINITSYNA GALINA VASILYEVNA
    Senior Researcher of the Paleolithic Department of the Institute of the History of Material Culture of the Russian Academy of Sciences".

    At the end of the Middle Valdai (27-24 thousand years ago), there is a significant change in the entire archaeological picture on the territory of Eastern Europe: the cultures of the early Upper Paleolithic period disappear and the developed aurignacoid and gravettoid industries of the Middle Upper Paleolithic period spread.21 These changes have found their specific reflection in the north of the Urals. At the end of the Middle Valdai, the Early Upper Paleolithic industries also disappeared in the region, but this was not accompanied as in the center of the East The European plain, the appearance of sites in the region of the Middle Pore of the Upper Paleolithic, which, at least in part, should be associated with extremely unfavorable natural climatic conditions for human life that existed in the first half of the Late Valdai in the north of the Urals.22 It is possible that in the late Middle — first half of the Late Valdai there was a depopulation of the region, as evidenced by the absence of Paleolithic sites in the basins of the Pechora and Upper Kama in the chronological interval from 27 to 19 thousand years ago. A significant change in the direction of cultural relations and the complication of forms of ethno - cultural interactions occurred in the North of the Urals in the late and final Paleolithic (19-9.5 thousand years ago). Sites of the second stage of the development of the Ural culture (15-12. 5 thousand years ago) are already widespread throughout the world. Ural - from the North to the South. These are such sites as the Bear Cave, the V layer of the Bolshoy Glukhoy Grotto, the Ustkoyvinsky Cave, the Kotel Cave, the Kumyshanskaya Cave, the Bobylek Grotto, the Kulyurttamak Cave, the Sergeyevka 1 Cave, the Bayslantash Cave, the Kapova Cave, and the early Ignatievskaya Cave complex (Fig. 3, 20-42).27
    Sites of the Late or Final Paleolithic stage (11-9. 5 (?) thousand years AGO) were found in the Upper Kama basin, in the Southern Urals, and in the Bolshezemelskaya tundra (Chernyshov Ridge). These are the parking lots of Gornaya Talitsa, Stolbovaya grotto, UstPozhva II-VI, Gorka, Riazanovsky Log, the third cultural layer of the Bolshoy Glukhoy grotto, the late Ignatievskaya Cave complex, and the Pymva Shor I site (Fig. 3, 43-58). According to the main characteristics of the stone inventory complexes, the Late Paleolithic sites in the north-east of Europe are close to those of the Middle Pore of the Upper Paleolithic of Southern Siberia. These Siberian sites are characterized by the emergence of a small plate industry.33 The Early Sartan sites of this cultural and chronological group, located in the south of Western Siberia, are geographically closest to the Late Paleolithic monuments of the North - East of Europe. In recent years, the Kulbulak Upper Paleolithic culture of the Western Pamir has been distinguished in Central Asia by K. A. Ko - lobova TianShan.36 The characteristics of the stone inventory complexes of the stage of the existence of a developed culture (according to K. A. Kolobova, from 30 to 25 thousand years ago) have a significant similarity with the structure of the stone inventory complexes of the small-plate industries of Siberia and the early monuments of the Ural culture. The characteristic feature of the primary cleavage technique - the presence of carenoid nuclei - brings these monuments together. Similar products are found on the monuments of the Ural culture of the early stage of its existence (the parking lot named after him. Talitsky, Shirovano-in II) and the middle stage (Bayslantash, Sergeev-ka 2). A significant similarity can be traced in the structure of the gun complexes of the Kulbulak and Ural monuments.
    Pavlov P.Y. Doctor of Historical Sciences, Institute of Language, Literature and History, Komi Science Centre, Ural Branch of the RAS (Russia, Syktyvkar)

    Isn't this an archaeological confirmation of both the divergence of R1 and R2 and the subsequent movement of R1 to Europe and R2 to Central Asia?
    The time window for the arriving of ANE ancestry west of the urals is interesting. 18.000/16000 BC would be a possible source for R1b and R1a. There are rumors of a R1b in east-central Europe 3000/4000 years before the Villabruna sample. Around 15000/16000 BC. Very early. But so far they are rumors even tough the source is trustworthy.
    Unless R1 was already among the gravettians of eastern europe. There are links between venus figurines between Malta and gravettian sites in Europe.
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-15-2021 at 07:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The time window for the arriving of ANE ancestry west of the urals is interesting. 18.000/16000 BC would be a possible source for R1b and R1a. There are rumors of a R1b in east-central Europe 3000/4000 years before the Villabruna sample. Around 15000/16000 BC. Very early. But so far they are rumors even tough the source is trustworthy.
    Unless R1 was already among the gravettians of eastern europe. There are links between venus figurines between Malta and gravettian sites in Europe.
    Hardly before, during the LGM period there was very cold weather. Not earlier than 18000 BC. This is a period when the temperature has increased, but the glacier has not yet melted and western Siberia has not yet turned into a solid swamp. And there are statuettes in Kostenki too. Apparently this is an artifact of earlier times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    The extinction of animal species is not the same as the extinction of the human population. After the disappearance of the mammoths, people hunted the northern and red deer, bison and wild horses. All this is well documented archaeologically. In the period 18000-16000 BC, the ANE population crossed the Urals and until the final Paleolithic it spread from the Urals to the Dnieper. During the Late Dryas period, this population moved even further south to the coast of the Azov and Black Seas, including the Crimea, where there are a large number of sites of the Final Paleolithic. Then, in the Early Mesolithic, this population spread across the Pontic steppe. The fact that no samples of ancient DNA have been examined at this time does not mean that there were no people in this region.

    "In the south of Eastern Europe, the following types of industries were identified in the Final Paleolithic: Epigravetta, Kamennobalkovskaya, Lingbi, Krasnoselskaya, Sviderskaya, Pozdnemolodovskaya, Shan-Kobinskaya, Tau-Bodrakskaya, Osokorovo-Rogalikskaya and Zimovnikovskaya, monuments of the Rogalik VII type (Leonova et al., 2006; Za-liznyak, 1998; Gorelik, 2002; Manko, 2009). The problem of their taxonomic status is a separate problem, but rather it is the differences in the level of archaeological cultures, since they are all based on a similar economic base, which is based on horse hunting (Gorelik, 2002; Leonova et al., 2006). Their diversity testifies to the strengthening of migration processes at the turn of the epochs, which can be traced throughout the territory of Eastern Europe. "
    SINITSYNA GALINA VASILYEVNA
    Senior Researcher of the Paleolithic Department of the Institute of the History of Material Culture of the Russian Academy of Sciences".

    At the end of the Middle Valdai (27-24 thousand years ago), there is a significant change in the entire archaeological picture on the territory of Eastern Europe: the cultures of the early Upper Paleolithic period disappear and the developed aurignacoid and gravettoid industries of the Middle Upper Paleolithic period spread.21 These changes have found their specific reflection in the north of the Urals. At the end of the Middle Valdai, the Early Upper Paleolithic industries also disappeared in the region, but this was not accompanied as in the center of the East The European plain, the appearance of sites in the region of the Middle Pore of the Upper Paleolithic, which, at least in part, should be associated with extremely unfavorable natural climatic conditions for human life that existed in the first half of the Late Valdai in the north of the Urals.22 It is possible that in the late Middle — first half of the Late Valdai there was a depopulation of the region, as evidenced by the absence of Paleolithic sites in the basins of the Pechora and Upper Kama in the chronological interval from 27 to 19 thousand years ago. A significant change in the direction of cultural relations and the complication of forms of ethno - cultural interactions occurred in the North of the Urals in the late and final Paleolithic (19-9.5 thousand years ago). Sites of the second stage of the development of the Ural culture (15-12. 5 thousand years ago) are already widespread throughout the world. Ural - from the North to the South. These are such sites as the Bear Cave, the V layer of the Bolshoy Glukhoy Grotto, the Ustkoyvinsky Cave, the Kotel Cave, the Kumyshanskaya Cave, the Bobylek Grotto, the Kulyurttamak Cave, the Sergeyevka 1 Cave, the Bayslantash Cave, the Kapova Cave, and the early Ignatievskaya Cave complex (Fig. 3, 20-42).27
    Sites of the Late or Final Paleolithic stage (11-9. 5 (?) thousand years AGO) were found in the Upper Kama basin, in the Southern Urals, and in the Bolshezemelskaya tundra (Chernyshov Ridge). These are the parking lots of Gornaya Talitsa, Stolbovaya grotto, UstPozhva II-VI, Gorka, Riazanovsky Log, the third cultural layer of the Bolshoy Glukhoy grotto, the late Ignatievskaya Cave complex, and the Pymva Shor I site (Fig. 3, 43-58). According to the main characteristics of the stone inventory complexes, the Late Paleolithic sites in the north-east of Europe are close to those of the Middle Pore of the Upper Paleolithic of Southern Siberia. These Siberian sites are characterized by the emergence of a small plate industry.33 The Early Sartan sites of this cultural and chronological group, located in the south of Western Siberia, are geographically closest to the Late Paleolithic monuments of the North - East of Europe. In recent years, the Kulbulak Upper Paleolithic culture of the Western Pamir has been distinguished in Central Asia by K. A. Ko - lobova TianShan.36 The characteristics of the stone inventory complexes of the stage of the existence of a developed culture (according to K. A. Kolobova, from 30 to 25 thousand years ago) have a significant similarity with the structure of the stone inventory complexes of the small-plate industries of Siberia and the early monuments of the Ural culture. The characteristic feature of the primary cleavage technique - the presence of carenoid nuclei - brings these monuments together. Similar products are found on the monuments of the Ural culture of the early stage of its existence (the parking lot named after him. Talitsky, Shirovano-in II) and the middle stage (Bayslantash, Sergeev-ka 2). A significant similarity can be traced in the structure of the gun complexes of the Kulbulak and Ural monuments.
    Pavlov P.Y. Doctor of Historical Sciences, Institute of Language, Literature and History, Komi Science Centre, Ural Branch of the RAS (Russia, Syktyvkar)

    Isn't this an archaeological confirmation of both the divergence of R1 and R2 and the subsequent movement of R1 to Europe and R2 to Central Asia?
    Sorry to say but it's not.

    Quoting good old Pavlov is all fine, but you keep missing the point - whih is the paleolithic/mesolithic transition, also known as the Younger Dryas, per se.

    More circumstantials reflecting the transitions of the LGM five millennias earlier - but still skipping the Younger Dryas - may only helpt to fit misconceptions. Unfortunately, none of this explains the last and most decimative bottleneck of the Eurasian genome, or what r-e-a-l-l-y happened during the critical transition of the Younger Dryas - when all them other species completely disappeared - never to return.

    Pines, Spruces, Elks, Deer, Wolfs, Dogs, Caprovids, Horses and Men did, though. The question is from where.

    So back to square 1;

    a) Which refugias existed east of the Djepr/Valdau/White Sea DURING the LGM?
    b) Which refugias existed east of the Djepr/Valdai/White Sea DURING the YD?
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-16-2021 at 03:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Pretty much every post-LGM sample we have has a surviving descendant post-YD.
    AG3 -> WSHG/Botai (~70%)
    GoyetQ_2 -> Portugal_Geometric_Mesolithic
    Taforalt -> IAM
    Bichon > Loschbour
    Satsurblia > Kotias
    UKY > Kolyma_meso
    PES001 > Karelia_HG
    I think that's just about every distinct population we have between LGM and YD outside the Americas, except Villabruna who does appear to be a dead-end.
    Please clarify:
    Which line of y-dna from Aftovna Gora re-appears in Botai?
    What line of y-dna from Goyet reappears in mesolithic Portugal?

    Bichon-Loshbour may both be post-YD, as do Satsurblia-Kotias and PES-Carelia. As for Villabruna the calibration of the dating is still not definite and thus 'preise'. Thus it can still be pre- or post-YD. Which mean it's v-e-r-y close to the YD and thus highly relevant to the discussion of where and when the R1 bifuricated into R1a and R1b. Dead-end or not - most samples of anctient y-dna are, anyhow - since only the 'dynasstical' stems remained through the formation of the "extended familes" producing mesolithic "high-cultures" into "stems" aka "etnicities" ('natio') able to produce and maintain the "higher civiliations" of the Eneolithic.

    Unfortunately they all suffered massive invasions, systematic looting and cultural destruction at some point, starting with the babylonian wars of the MBA, from where the 'right-by-migh-movement' spread like wildfire that evidently made it around the globe, as Bronze Age turned into Iron Age, the Middle Ages and the Colonial Ages. Completing this endavour as entire "new worlds' was explored - across the seas - to be conquered and exploited. Thus the history, traditions and (even) languages of the native cultures of America and Eurasia have been uprooted and radically changed, to fit the preferences of the mideval mindset of their new, colonial masters. Duely it took modern science until the end of the 2Oth Century to start recognizing the pre-glacial origins of, and the pre-colonial diffusions within and inbetween ancient Eurasia and ancient America. Since all of them evolved from various refugias as of 12.OOO-11.5OO yrs ago I think it's more than fair to view the Younger Dryas as a "ground zero" from where the present genomes of Eurasia and America was re-bottled to fit the new, post-glacial world.

    Considering that the first people to re-populate the Northern Meds shared a cultural origin with the contemporary, maritime culture that re-populated NW Europe, we find them to genetially close as y-dna G and I, both producing their respective dyansties - as branches and 'houses' - across their respective regions. Thus it's relevant to look a third, similar culture simultaniously pioneering the re-population of the rivers west and south of the Himalayas, produced by dynasties of y-dna H and J. Conseqeuently we may speak of "South-European HGs", "North-European HGs", "Caucasian HGs" and "SSA HGs". As well as "North-African HGs" - due to the Natufian ancestors who did, indeed, survive both LGM and the YD on the southern side of the Med. From such a con cept we may view the "North-European HGs" in three branches - producing WHG, SHG and EHG, where the latter have som genuine characteristics due to early links with the Asian refugias, such as the "Sino-Tibetan". This influence came to Carelia already 7.5OO BP, as some finns and farmers in Carelia got brides to their bridergooms from relatives east of the Urals.
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-16-2021 at 06:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Sorry to say but it's not.

    Quoting good old Pavlov is all fine, but you keep missing the point - whih is the paleolithic/mesolithic transition, also known as the Younger Dryas, per se.

    More circumstantials reflecting the transitions of the LGM five millennias earlier - but still skipping the Younger Dryas - may only helpt to fit misconceptions. Unfortunately, none of this explains the last and most decimative bottleneck of the Eurasian genome, or what r-e-a-l-l-y happened during the critical transition of the Younger Dryas - when all them other species completely disappeared - never to return.

    Pines, Spruces, Elks, Deer, Wolfs, Dogs, Caprovids, Horses and Men did, though. The question is from where.

    So back to square 1;

    a) Which refugias existed east of the Djepr/Valdau/White Sea DURING the LGM?
    b) Which refugias existed east of the Djepr/Valdai/White Sea DURING the YD?

    And was there a need for them?

    The greatest deviations of the average January temperature from the current values in the Late Dryas epoch are found in the north-western part of Europe. The average January temperatures were 10-13 degrees lower than today. In the direction to the south and east, the deviations gradually decrease, and beyond the Urals, winter temperatures everywhere are close to modern. In Primorye and on the Japanese Islands, the reconstructed temperatures are 2-4 lower than the current ones. In North America, the reconstructed temeratures are also lower than the modern ones, the deviations increase from south to north, towards the inner part of the continent, still occupied by the Laurentian ice sheet II thousand years ago, and reach - 8-9C.

    Judging by the deviations ^ from the current values, the situation in North America and in Europe is fundamentally similar, but the analysis of the actual January temperatures shows that this similarity is incomplete. The reconstructed thermal field for North America is similar to the modern one and differs from it only quantitatively: a decrease in temperature by several degrees and a certain increase in the meridional gradient. The map of actual winter temperatures for Europe is very different from the current one. If on the modern climate map the January isotherms are deployed in the submeridional direction, then here they pass sub-rotately, turning to the north only on the western edge of the continent and as if continuing the isotherms passing through Siberia. Obviously, the deep winter depression of temperatures in the territory of north-western Europe means that the warming effect of the Atlantic Ocean sharply weakened during the Late Dryas epoch. The resulting distribution of winter temperatures indicates the dominance of the continental climate in Europe with its characteristic deep winter cooling.

    The deviations of the average July temperature from the current values were generally not as large as the deviations of winter temperatures. In both Western Europe and North America, they increase from north to south, reaching - 6C. Thus, with a certain general decrease in temperature, the meridional gradient in the summer season was somewhat less than at present. In Eastern Europe and Northern Asia, the average July temperatures in the late Dryas were close to modern.

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