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Thread: What is EHG/ Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    Etrusco: Here is a zoom in of the EHG admixtures in Mittniks figure 2. There are 5 samples, the two Karelians and 3 other classical EHGs, I would assume Samara and Sidelkino, although their names are not explicitely mentioned. So the green CHG component is part of all EHGs outside Scandinavia! It comprises about 20% of the whole genome; that is too much for a mere noise signal. Mittnik says:



    So she registered the problem of the missing green component in Scandinavia, but she didn't draw the right conclusions. I recommend not to underestimate this phenomenon, for it tells us something important about the origin of EHG.

    Attachment 44383
    The green component maximized in CHG-IRAN NEOand STEPPE is the eastern component of EHG that is the ANE/AFONTOVA GORA like population. The rest is WHG and is in blu. As simple as that. You wrongly assume the green component is a third component besides ANE and WHG. No the green component is basically the non WHG part of EHG as is plain evident from the color blu WHG and green Siberian related to ANE.

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    The admixture run doesn't seem to have a reference representing ANE, so really the algorithm may simply be trying to make up for it with an additional mixture of CHG+Iran which were also rich in ANE ancestry. Unsupervised admixture cannot be really trusted 100%. The Veretye EHG sample is the oldest so far and already shows a similar EHG profile. Ideally to test for extra CHG/Iran affinity you want to make sure you have accounted for all relevant ANE-related ancestry. But since some J1 was found, it's not necessarily out of question I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The green component maximized in CHG-IRAN NEOand STEPPE is the eastern component of EHG that is the ANE/AFONTOVA GORA like population. The rest is WHG and is in blu. As simple as that. You wrongly assume the green component is a third component besides ANE and WHG. No the green component is basically the non WHG part of EHG as is plain evident from the color blu WHG and green Siberian related to ANE.
    If that was true, there would be no difference between the Scandinavian EHG and WHG samples that, as we have seen, are missing the green CHG-component. But there is - that's why we have the distinction in Scandinavian EHG and WHG and their composition (SHG) in this paper:

    "Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation"

    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.2003703

    SHG is WHG with EHG - and without CHG. Picture no. 3 is also taken from that paper. EHG red, WHG green:

    EHG-WHG.JPG
    Last edited by Kaltmeister; 04-18-2021 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    If that was true, there would be no difference between the Scandinavian EHG and WHG samples that, as we have seen, are missing the green CHG-component. But there is - that's why we have the distinction in Scandinavian EHG and WHG and their composition (SHG) in this paper:

    "Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation"

    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.2003703

    SHG is WHG with EHG - and without CHG. Picture no. 3 is also taken from that paper. EHG red, WHG green:

    EHG-WHG.JPG
    If EHG has CHG then SHG must have CHG too, in small amount but it should have it. But CHG in eastern Europe that is something to take in consideration it does not seem it is a proper CHG but something CHG related and rich in ANE.
    But SHG have no CHG.
    So the explanation is simple. First WHG and ANE mixed in Russia/ eastern Europe creating EHG and only after this EHG pushed further west in northern Europe reaching scandinavia. As simple as that
    Last edited by etrusco; 04-18-2021 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    If EHG has CHG then SHG must have CHG too, in small amount but it should have it. But CHG in eastern Europe that is something to take in consideration it does not seem it is a proper CHG but something CHG related and rich in ANE.
    But SHG have no CHG.
    So the explanation is simple. First WHG and ANE mixed in Russia/ eastern Europe creating EHG and only after this EHG pushed further west in northern Europe reaching scandinavia. As simple as that
    The most important information we lack so far is this: which was the genetic profile of the people living in Russia before 10000 BC.
    Were they Gravettian left over?
    Maybe Epigravettian?
    Or a deserted zone ?
    Were they Afontova Gora like?
    More WHG like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The most important information we lack so far is this: which was the genetic profile of the people living in Russia before 10000 BC.
    Were they Gravettian left over?
    Maybe Epigravettian?
    Or a deserted zone ?
    Were they Afontova Gora like?
    More WHG like?
    There is an Epigravettian site on the Seim river.
    http://www.science-sd.com/455-24279

    In general, the inventory lies in the context of the typical epigravettian traditions: different burins with a predominance of the dihedral, many different scrapers, perforators with a massive sting and short sting, adze tools and Kostenki type knifes, toothed and sinuate tools.
    Last edited by epoch; 04-20-2021 at 07:24 AM.

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    Basically from my understanding, the EHG, WHG, and Scandinavian HG exist on an east-west cline based on to what degree they are descended from the Ancient North Eurasians (Mal'ta–Buret'-like) and to what degree they are descended from the paleolithic populations of europe (cro magnon?). WHG have more of the latter (90% Cromagnon) while EHG have more of the former (75% ANE).
    Attachment 44410
    As you can see, EHG and WHG are on a cline between Villabruna (Cromagnon from Ripari Villabruna) and ANE. Basal-Rich is basically just natufians iirc, who are assumed to have 40-50% "Basal Eurasian" in them. Might be anatolians Iranian neolithic, im not sure. Either way they basically exist as a stand in for the Basal Eurasian ghost population (but only represents 20-50% basal) so for these purposes you can ignore them.
    Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 5.49.30 PM.png
    Here is also a graph showing the admixture of ancient populations from the 4 major components of west eurasia. It also displays some extra stuff on the side which includes the cromagnon and villabruna admix for European HGs
    Last edited by Billyh; 04-20-2021 at 09:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyh View Post
    Basically from my understanding, the EHG, WHG, and Scandinavian HG exist on an east-west cline based on to what degree they are descended from the Ancient North Eurasians (Mal'ta–Buret'-like) and to what degree they are descended from the paleolithic populations of europe (cro magnon?). WHG have more of the latter (90% Cromagnon) while EHG have more of the former (75% ANE).
    Attachment 44410
    As you can see, EHG and WHG are on a cline between Villabruna (Cromagnon from Ripari Villabruna) and ANE. Basal-Rich is basically just natufians iirc, who are assumed to have 40-50% "Basal Eurasian" in them. Might be anatolians Iranian neolithic, im not sure. Either way they basically exist as a stand in for the Basal Eurasian ghost population (but only represents 20-50% basal) so for these purposes you can ignore them.
    Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 5.49.30 PM.png
    Here is also a graph showing the admixture of ancient populations from the 4 major components of west eurasia. It also displays some extra stuff on the side which includes the cromagnon and villabruna admix for European HGs
    This diagram shouldn't be taken literally.

    In fact, it's outdated and literally wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    This diagram shouldn't be taken literally.

    In fact, it's outdated and literally wrong.
    If it just needs some minor tweaking, it is an interesting perspective.

    So, can it be updated ?
    Sth Baltic DNA FB Group: Hidden Content

    L151 child clades P312==U106==S1194==A8053

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    If it just needs some minor tweaking, it is an interesting perspective.

    So, can it be updated ?
    Not really. We need a new one desperately.

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