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Thread: What is EHG/ Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingeo View Post
    This question may be off topic, but is MA1 pure ANE or does it have EHG admixture?
    What do you mean by MA1? Malta guy from Siberia? If yes, then I am not sure this question make sense. Almost surely EHG did not exist when Malta guy lived. Malta guy lived 23 000 years ago and oldest EHG(Sidelkino, IIRC) we have is like 10 000 years old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingeo View Post
    This question may be off topic, but is MA1 pure ANE or does it have EHG admixture?
    MA1 is literally the defining sample of ANE. It's like asking if Anatolia_Barcin was pure ANF or not...it is and that's the whole point.


    As for the OP question, I don't think so. Hunter gatherer populations seemed to exist as a cline and just because EHG can be modeled as ANE+WHG doesn't mean it actually IS a mix of those things. Just like the French being modeled as a mix of Dutch and Spanish doesn't necessitate that they actually are a mix of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    MA1 is literally the defining sample of ANE. It's like asking if Anatolia_Barcin was pure ANF or not...it is and that's the whole point.


    As for the OP question, I don't think so. Hunter gatherer populations seemed to exist as a cline and just because EHG can be modeled as ANE+WHG doesn't mean it actually IS a mix of those things. Just like the French being modeled as a mix of Dutch and Spanish doesn't necessitate that they actually are a mix of those things.
    But we can see some things that look like cultural movements. We see North-Eurasian flint techniques start to appear in eastern Europe after the LGM and we know that from Central Europe a culture called Swiderian entered the Russian and Ukrainian plains roughly 12,000 BC.

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    Canes_meso does have a bit more ANE than the main WHG cluster e.g. Loschbour, Bichon, Villabruna, Ranchot, Rochedane, British mesolithic.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    MA1 is literally the defining sample of ANE. It's like asking if Anatolia_Barcin was pure ANF or not...it is and that's the whole point.


    As for the OP question, I don't think so. Hunter gatherer populations seemed to exist as a cline and just because EHG can be modeled as ANE+WHG doesn't mean it actually IS a mix of those things. Just like the French being modeled as a mix of Dutch and Spanish doesn't necessitate that they actually are a mix of those things.
    Like all other paleolithic populations east of the lower Djepr - like Central Asia and NE Asia - the MA1-population went EXTINCT during the LGM.
    A few new populations returned after the LGM, but just to get decimated again during the Younger Dryas Extintion Event, when 2/3 of Eurasias mamalian species were extinguished.

    The only known survivors of the human specie survived together with a few larger mamals in NW Europe, where the Gulfstream produced a climatical refugia between the English Channel and the SW Baltics. Conseuently we find a major bottleneck - and conseuent foudner-effects - in the human populations surviving the LGM to repopulate the better areas of Western Asia during the Alleroed.

    Only to be deciamated again as the Younger Dryas cold-dip happened - between 12.930 and 11.900 calC14-years ago. Produing the most severe extincrion on record - since the K/T-extinction event, 50+ million years ago. Thus the most severe bottleneck of the Eurasian Genome ended no more than 11.900 years ago - producing a serie of founder-effects as the climate sharply improved.

    Unless you need to be cynical about it you may compare the present results from the paleolithic sciences to the old legends about a small group of people surviving the Fimbulwinter, the Deucalion or the Flood, from which a surviving family of Noah could produce ten sons that went out to produce ten (different) new families, from which cultural tribes could grow into civizational dynasties - from which the Present Eurasian Genome was determined.

    https://www.academia.edu/301335/Der_..._Ursprung_Der_

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    But we can see some things that look like cultural movements. We see North-Eurasian flint techniques start to appear in eastern Europe after the LGM and we know that from Central Europe a culture called Swiderian entered the Russian and Ukrainian plains roughly 12,000 BC.
    No-one entered the steppes east of Valdai and Djepr before 11.500 calC-14 yrs BP. The Caspian depression were still filled with ice and meltwater from the Uralian, Himalayan and Caucasian mountains - which kept both the Asov Sea icy all year around and the eastern Black Sea cold as todays White Sea - until a millennia after the YD. The passages between Europe and India/China didn't really open before the ice-lake of the Caspian depression, 3-4 times larger than the present Sea, started to open.

    Though - the very first settlers could reach the Black Sea and Anatolia already 11.600 BP, as Gobekli Tepe was started. Likewise they could reach from the Gulf of Finland eastwards along the Volga - as far as Shigir in Russia - at the same time. The famous 'Shigir idol' dates to 11.600 and its heraldic decorations have clear-cut paralelles to the similar patterns found in Gobekli Tepe and Catal Huyk, as well as the later decos on the first ceramic pottery found in Elshanka (9000 BP), as well as
    corded wares of Japan (Jomon) and Northern Europe. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40618220306455


    The origin of the eastbound re-population of Western Eurasia had definitly something to do with the Swidrien culture, that started at the mounths of Oder (11.900 BP) and Vistula (11.800 BP), on the very same premises as the Pertuna-culture made the oldest known amber-art during the Alleroed osciliation. Two decades ago already Dr. Marek Zwelebil could follow the pioneering Swidrien culture from Poland to Kunda and Carelia, as well as to Bug-Djeper and Crimea. Today we may add that a northern branch of the same, 'oriental' culture pioneered the re-population of Finland, north to the Lapponian Sea, the Arctic Sea and the White Sea - producing the well-documented "Komsa-culture", no later than 11.200 BP. (While the 'occidental' branches from the same origin pioneeered the re-population of the Atlantic facade, from Biscany to Lofoten.)

    Today we may find their gentic imprints, even, as a dynasty of y-dna I2 seems to be responsible for this northern expensions, while a related but independant dynasty of y-dna G2 seems to be the first ones re-populating the Mediterranean facade - from Spain to Sumer and a thrid dynasty forming y-dna J2 pioneered the post-glacial rivers and coasts between Tigris and Ganges.

    Reducing these pioneering populations to tri-pod model of "WHG"-"EHG"-"SHG" may seem to be a bit besides the diversity that later followed, as the agricultural populations could follow theses pioneers, to establish branches of milk-consuming populations characterized by funneled, belled and corded beakers as well as y-dna R1a and R1b. The first obviously able to bring cold-blooded life-stocks to the sub-arctic climates of Scotland, Central Europe, Fenno-Scandia and Russia - the latter utilizing the older, warm-blooded life-stocks to populate the milder plains of England, Germany, Fracne and Spain, as well a the steppes north and east of the Black Sea.

    Thus we do not NEED paleolithic genomes to explain any of them - except from a 'core-group' of survivors - able to explain all of them.

    If so we may have to look again at a "noah-id" model for the re-popualton of Western Eurasia. Based on a KNOWN refugia - such as the "Bromme/Lyngby" within the hot straits between Germany, Jutland and Scania - where chisels made of reindeer-antlers, used for flint-tool-production, have been dated to 12.500 cal-C14 years BP. Which indicate that the coasts just south of the famous Scanian flint-mines have actually served its the legendary status as "a womb of nations".

    https://www.academia.edu/6878056/Ear...Mose_Sjaelland
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-11-2021 at 03:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Like all other paleolithic populations east of the lower Djepr - like Central Asia and NE Asia - the MA1-population went EXTINCT during the LGM.
    A few new populations returned after the LGM, but just to get decimated again during the Younger Dryas Extintion Event, when 2/3 of Eurasias mamalian species were extinguished.

    The only known survivors of the human specie survived together with a few larger mamals in NW Europe, where the Gulfstream produced a climatical refugia between the English Channel and the SW Baltics. Conseuently we find a major bottleneck - and conseuent foudner-effects - in the human populations surviving the LGM to repopulate the better areas of Western Asia during the Alleroed.

    Only to be deciamated again as the Younger Dryas cold-dip happened - between 12.930 and 11.900 calC14-years ago. Produing the most severe extincrion on record - since the K/T-extinction event, 50+ million years ago. Thus the most severe bottleneck of the Eurasian Genome ended no more than 11.900 years ago - producing a serie of founder-effects as the climate sharply improved.

    Unless you need to be cynical about it you may compare the present results from the paleolithic sciences to the old legends about a small group of people surviving the Fimbulwinter, the Deucalion or the Flood, from which a surviving family of Noah could produce ten sons that went out to produce ten (different) new families, from which cultural tribes could grow into civizational dynasties - from which the Present Eurasian Genome was determined.

    https://www.academia.edu/301335/Der_..._Ursprung_Der_



    No-one entered the steppes east of Valdai and Djepr before 11.500 calC-14 yrs BP. The Caspian depression were still filled with ice and meltwater from the Uralian, Himalayan and Caucasian mountains - which kept both the Asov Sea icy all year around and the eastern Black Sea cold as todays White Sea - until a millennia after the YD. The passages between Europe and India/China didn't really open before the ice-lake of the Caspian depression, 3-4 times larger than the present Sea, started to open.

    Though - the very first settlers could reach the Black Sea and Anatolia already 11.600 BP, as Gobekli Tepe was started. Likewise they could reach from the Gulf of Finland eastwards along the Volga - as far as Shigir in Russia - at the same time. The famous 'Shigir idol' dates to 11.600 and its heraldic decorations have clear-cut paralelles to the similar patterns found in Gobekli Tepe and Catal Huyk, as well as the later decos on the first ceramic pottery found in Elshanka (9000 BP), as well as
    corded wares of Japan (Jomon) and Northern Europe. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40618220306455


    The origin of the eastbound re-population of Western Eurasia had definitly something to do with the Swidrien culture, that started at the mounths of Oder (11.900 BP) and Vistula (11.800 BP), on the very same premises as the Pertuna-culture made the oldest known amber-art during the Alleroed osciliation. Two decades ago already Dr. Marek Zwelebil could follow the pioneering Swidrien culture from Poland to Kunda and Carelia, as well as to Bug-Djeper and Crimea. Today we may add that a northern branch of the same, 'oriental' culture pioneered the re-population of Finland, north to the Lapponian Sea, the Arctic Sea and the White Sea - producing the well-documented "Komsa-culture", no later than 11.200 BP. (While the 'occidental' branches from the same origin pioneeered the re-population of the Atlantic facade, from Biscany to Lofoten.)

    Today we may find their gentic imprints, even, as a dynasty of y-dna I2 seems to be responsible for this northern expensions, while a related but independant dynasty of y-dna G2 seems to be the first ones re-populating the Mediterranean facade - from Spain to Sumer and a thrid dynasty forming y-dna J2 pioneered the post-glacial rivers and coasts between Tigris and Ganges.

    Reducing these pioneering populations to tri-pod model of "WHG"-"EHG"-"SHG" may seem to be a bit besides the diversity that later followed, as the agricultural populations could follow theses pioneers, to establish branches of milk-consuming populations characterized by funneled, belled and corded beakers as well as y-dna R1a and R1b. The first obviously able to bring cold-blooded life-stocks to the sub-arctic climates of Scotland, Central Europe, Fenno-Scandia and Russia - the latter utilizing the older, warm-blooded life-stocks to populate the milder plains of England, Germany, Fracne and Spain, as well a the steppes north and east of the Black Sea.

    Thus we do not NEED paleolithic genomes to explain any of them - except from a 'core-group' of survivors - able to explain all of them.

    If so we may have to look again at a "noah-id" model for the re-popualton of Western Eurasia. Based on a KNOWN refugia - such as the "Bromme/Lyngby" within the hot straits between Germany, Jutland and Scania - where chisels made of reindeer-antlers, used for flint-tool-production, have been dated to 12.500 cal-C14 years BP. Which indicate that the coasts just south of the famous Scanian flint-mines have actually served its the legendary status as "a womb of nations".

    https://www.academia.edu/6878056/Ear...Mose_Sjaelland

    Iím sorry, this is kind of kooky. The split dates between different human populations in Eurasia are much older than just 11-12k years ago. Unless there was some kind of menagerie of different genetic profiles all remaining distinct living in NW Europe and then neatly moving into their present day distribution coinciding with large regional clusters(super unlikely anyway), this theory is not possible. We know most human beings in Eurasia descend from distinct hunter gatherer populations within their respective regions of origin(east, south, west, northern Eurasia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    I’m sorry, this is kind of kooky. The split dates between different human populations in Eurasia are much older than just 11-12k years ago. Unless there was some kind of menagerie of different genetic profiles all remaining distinct living in NW Europe and then neatly moving into their present day distribution coinciding with large regional clusters(super unlikely anyway), this theory is not possible. We know most human beings in Eurasia descend from distinct hunter gatherer populations within their respective regions of origin(east, south, west, northern Eurasia).
    1) I'm not sure what "kooky" means. Is it slang for 'cognitive dissonance'?
    2a) How do 'we' know that "most human beings in Eurasia" descend from distinct HG populations?
    2b) If "most" but not all human beings descend from HG populations, from where did the rest descend?
    3) Which regional HG populations ("east, south, west, northern") do you actually refer to?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    1) I'm not sure what "kooky" means. Is it slang for 'cognitive dissonance'?
    2a) How do 'we' know that "most human beings in Eurasia" descend from distinct HG populations?
    2b) If "most" but not all human beings descend from HG populations, from where did the rest descend?
    3) Which regional HG populations ("east, south, west, northern") do you actually refer to?!
    1) It means crazy
    2a)The genetic distance between modern human populations indicates that they have ancestral streams that diverged prior to the Mesolithic. No Asian populations can be modeled with the exact same hunter gatherer populations that Europeans can be modeled with and vice versa.
    2b) My bad, I should have said all of them.
    3) All of them. East Asians descend from East Asian hunter gatherer groups, west Asians descend from west Asian hunter gatherer groups(CHG, Pinarbasi, Hotu, Natufians) and south Asians from South Asian(AASI) hunter gatherers and Iranian HGs. Siberians descend from north Asian groups(WSHG) and East Asian hunter gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    1) It means crazy
    2a)The genetic distance between modern human populations indicates that they have ancestral streams that diverged prior to the Mesolithic. No Asian populations can be modeled with the exact same hunter gatherer populations that Europeans can be modeled with and vice versa.
    2b) My bad, I should have said all of them.
    3) All of them. East Asians descend from East Asian hunter gatherer groups, west Asians descend from west Asian hunter gatherer groups(CHG, Pinarbasi, Hotu, Natufians) and south Asians from South Asian(AASI) hunter gatherers and Iranian HGs. Siberians descend from north Asian groups(WSHG) and East Asian hunter gatherers.
    1. Isn't that (too) a pretty normal expression used by people experiencing a "cognitivee dissonance"?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

    2. "Ancestral streams" may or may not be prior to the Paleolithc/Mesolithic transition. How does the Younger Dryas Extinction Event and the following Founder Effects aligned with those "streams"?

    3. You're NOT reffering to "populations" here, but to "genomes". My question was not of genetic but historic nature. Thus again - which historical populations do you refer to as survivors of the Younger Dryas - as well as the prior LGM?

    AFAIK there's no (archeologically) known refugias north of the 40th paralell, xcept from the one mentioned from NW Europe. South of the 40th parallell there are several, of course - such as "anceint chineese", "ancient indoneese" and "ancient australians" aka 'aboriginees'. Besided "ancient indian" (onge), "ancient africans" and "ancient americans" aka 'amerindians'.

    AFAIK we can't explain the re-population of post-glacial Eurasia at large - Western Eurasia in specifically - as a result of any of the tropical survivors. To the contrary it's already proven that the direct ancestors to all mesolithic and neolithic Eurasians - north of the 45th parallell - did, indeed, live in western Eurasia - east to Ust Istim - during the late periods of the upper Paleolithic. Thus the question remains - unless you use the sub-tropical survors of 'ancient humans' from Africa, India and China to form the various groups you suggest.

    If that's the case your 'model' would require that your "East Asian HG" descends from an archaic Chineese, while the AASI originted in the ancients populating southern India throughout the LUP. Would that be the Onge/Andaman? Your proposed link with Iran is doubtful, as we don't have any populations known - so far - to survive the LGM/YD between the Tigris and the Indus. Though the 'proto-arians' that came there after ice-age did indeed mix with a tropical tribe that had survived the climatical cataclysm in the tropical/semi-tropical parts of India and/or Indo-China. (It may seem that the denisovan genotype originated in that area.)

    That may explain the specific genome that started the Indo-Iranian HG, as headed by a dynasty of y-dna J2, while their caucasian cousins formed another group of HGs north and east of the Mediterranean based on y-dna G2 - by mixing with the archaic survivors of Northern Africa, where some ancient neander-dna might have been present, together with the natufian y-dna E.

    The last two is extremely difficult to understand though - sine we have NO archaic human populations known to northern Asia - besides the archaic chineese, surviving well south of Korea during the LUP. So what about "West Asian HG" - from which geograpical origin did they appear?! Finally you postulate a "North Asian HG" (WHSG) to form from yet another unknown refugia - separate from the macro-group C/F of NW Europe as well as the 'tropical' survivors of China. Does there exist such a group anywhere in NE Asia before, during and after the Younger Dryas? In case I'll be most interested to get to know w-h-e-r-e...
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-11-2021 at 11:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Sidelkino, Samara hunter-gatherer, Karelian HG and an additional Karelian sample from Popovo. Sidelkino is the oldest a 9000 BC. Interestingly enough the latest Gravettian paper described an upper Paleolithic Crimean site and determined the first layer after recovery from LGM as Swiderian, from 9,500 BC.

    EDIT: Forgot Latvia_MN2
    That's eactly the date that 12-14 years ago frustrated Marek Zwelebil, the foremost authority on East Europes Mesolithic, since he followed "the most plausible" causeway to find the very origin of the Swidrien, that already then were held responsible as the start of the Kunda-Volga as well as the Suomoussalmi-Komsa 'techno-complexes'. The 'plausible' origin would be the hypothized refugia once named "Pontic-Carpatian" or "Extra-Mediterranenan" from the warmer side if the Black Sea, west of Crimea, which did - indeed - serve as a refugia for humans as well as other large plants and animals during the LGM, sentered along the lower Djepr.

    Surprisingly that refugium was NOT repated during the Younger Dryas. The first and oldest mesolithic habitat - since the end of the Alleroed warmth 13.000 BP was no more than 11.500 calC14 yrs old, while the oldest Swidrien at the lower Vistula was already 11.800 yrs old. Thus the Swidrien had no eastern predecessor able to explain it's origin and archaeological characteristics. A decade later the origin of the Swidrein was indeed found - but at its western side, at the mouth of Oder, dating 11.900 BP. Meanwhile the climatical characteristics of the MIS2-period had clearified that the Himalayan mountains, as well as the Uralian and Casapian, had been supplying the Caspian bassin with 'enormous amounts' of meltwater as the Younger Dryas came and went - producing an ice-lake within the Caspian bassin that were 40+ meter higher, filling 4-5 times the areal of todays sea. Emptying through the Don valley the ice and meltwater made the present river Don tiny in comparision, effectively freezing the eastern side of the Black Sea and cooling the Dardanelles and the north-eastern Meds substantially. Forcing the first settlers of Anatolia to build sub-teranean houses to keep the frosty winds out, much like the old islanders of the North Atlantic, such as the Orkneys, Shetlanders and the Faeroese, have done until modern time. Studying the subterranean dwellibngs of neolithic Orkenys one may find quite a few parallells to the sub-terranean dwellings of Gobekli Tepe.


    Contiunuing Zwelebils work german Thomas Terberger looked into the Volga-Oka and Volga-Kama-cutlures to find a possible origin to both Kunda and Swidrien, but to no avail. The oldest settlements form the Volga horizon was just about 11.200 BP, same as found at Norways North Cape-region, where the Kunda-Suomussalmi inland culture met the northern coasts and the northern tiers of the Fosna-culture that sperad along the Scandianvian west-coast, from Gothenborough to Lofoten and the coasts of the Lapponian Sea. Just north of Lofoten, outside todays Tromso, the eastern komsa-branch made their first major city at the Atlantic facade, with some 50 subterranean store-rooms, workshops and dwellings, at what became the major trading-port between the 'oriental' Kunda-Carelia-Komsa-culture and their 'occidental' Bromme-Hensbacka-Fosna-culture of west-coast Scandianvia. And unlike Gobekli Tepe, the port is still there, as is the biggest city north of the Arctic Circle, 11.000+ years later. Still connecting southern Scandinavia to the Arctic waters and the White Sea - besides connecting this north Atlantic trade-zone to the Botnic Bay and thus the Baltic Ocean. Via the south-east-bound river-routes, served by 'sewn boats' during summers and dog-sledges during winters.

    https://www.itromso.no/nyheter/2018/...n-18152104.ece


    Thus the Swidrien and the Ahrensburgian neighbours would pioneer two different sides of the Baltic Ocean from the post-glacial getgo - producing a very early network of trade that ended up in the Hanseatic League - that already eleven millennias ago met up north as the occidental Fosnas and the oriental Komsas. One becomming indo-european, the other fenno-ugric - if they weren't already, upon arrival from the eastern vs the western Baltics, respectively.

    May that explain the tri-pod distribution from one and the same refugia - producing one branch known as WHG, another one known as EHG and a recombination, of both called the SHG - respectively...?
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-12-2021 at 01:50 AM.

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