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Thread: What is EHG/ Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    1. Isn't that (too) a pretty normal expression used by people experiencing a "cognitivee dissonance"?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

    2. "Ancestral streams" may or may not be prior to the Paleolithc/Mesolithic transition. How does the Younger Dryas Extinction Event and the following Founder Effects aligned with those "streams"?

    3. You're NOT reffering to "populations" here, but to "genomes". My question was not of genetic but historic nature. Thus again - which historical populations do you refer to as survivors of the Younger Dryas - as well as the prior LGM?

    AFAIK there's no (archeologically) known refugias north of the 40th paralell, xcept from the one mentioned from NW Europe. South of the 40th parallell there are several, of course - such as "anceint chineese", "ancient indoneese" and "ancient australians" aka 'aboriginees'. Besided "ancient indian" (onge), "ancient africans" and "ancient americans" aka 'amerindians'.

    AFAIK we can't explain the re-population of post-glacial Eurasia at large - Western Eurasia in specifically - as a result of any of the tropical survivors. To the contrary it's already proven that the direct ancestors to all mesolithic and neolithic Eurasians - north of the 45th parallell - did, indeed, live in western Eurasia - east to Ust Istim - during the late periods of the upper Paleolithic. Thus the question remains - unless you use the sub-tropical survors of 'ancient humans' from Africa, India and China to form the various groups you suggest.

    If that's the case your 'model' would require that your "East Asian HG" descends from an archaic Chineese, while the AASI originted in the ancients populating southern India throughout the LUP. Would that be the Onge/Andaman? Your proposed link with Iran is doubtful, as we don't have any populations known - so far - to survive the LGM/YD between the Tigris and the Indus. Though the 'proto-arians' that came there after ice-age did indeed mix with a tropical tribe that had survived the climatical cataclysm in the tropical/semi-tropical parts of India and/or Indo-China. (It may seem that the denisovan genotype originated in that area.)

    That may explain the specific genome that started the Indo-Iranian HG, as headed by a dynasty of y-dna J2, while their caucasian cousins formed another group of HGs north and east of the Mediterranean based on y-dna G2 - by mixing with the archaic survivors of Northern Africa, where some ancient neander-dna might have been present, together with the natufian y-dna E.

    The last two is extremely difficult to understand though - sine we have NO archaic human populations known to northern Asia - besides the archaic chineese, surviving well south of Korea during the LUP. So what about "West Asian HG" - from which geograpical origin did they appear?! Finally you postulate a "North Asian HG" (WHSG) to form from yet another unknown refugia - separate from the macro-group C/F of NW Europe as well as the 'tropical' survivors of China. Does there exist such a group anywhere in NE Asia before, during and after the Younger Dryas? In case I'll be most interested to get to know w-h-e-r-e...
    The problem is, you're not understanding what difference tens of thousands of years makes on divergences. MA1 is a 25k yo sample from the upper paleolithic culture and the ANE genome no longer existed in the same form by the "younger Dryas" or neolithic. What ended up happening is that the Ancestral North Eurasians+similar popualtions had mixed in with other human populations by this time and what looks like "extinction" to you is just genetic diffusion. The closest thing that came to it were the West Siberian hunter gatherers and the later Botai but otherwise, ANE ended up over much of Europe and Asia and even the Americas.

    Also, when you talk about the LGM refugia, understand that it refers to places surrounded by extensive ice sheets or extremely dry deserts-the two main things that prevented human habitation at the time. Siberia including the region where MA1 was found was neither. Siberia was actually mostly unglaciated-still brutally cold, but human beings can cope with cold as long as there's food. So the concept of refugia is not relevant here.

    The Onge are a related group to the original hunter gatherers of S and SE Asia, yes. As for Iranian HGs, they themselves are a mix of ANE+Natufian. Iranian HGs would later become Iran_N and spread eastwards.

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    By now, this information is already outdated. There is a work in 2020 on the dating of human sites in the Southern Urals. Apparently, it is these sites that mark the exit of R1/ANE populations from Siberia to Europe.
    "THE AGE OF UPPER PALEOLITHIC MONUMENTS IN THE CAVES OF KAPOVA AND IGNATIEVSKAYA (SOUTHERN URALS): REVISION OF RADIOCARBON DATES AND THEIR interpretation "
    " Available 14 14C dates (see Table. 1) indicate that the Shulgan-Tash cave was visited/used by Upper Paleolithic man between 20,600 and 16,100 years ago. For Ignatiev Cave, the interval of visits based on the results of three calibrated dates is 18,300-15,400 years ago (Table 2). The Late Paleolithic age of visits to the caves can be considered reliably determined.

    http://www.ipdn.ru/_private/a50/5-16.pdf

    PS: Moreover, in the archaeological sense, this is the same archaeological culture as in the parking lot where MA1 was discovered
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 05-12-2021 at 04:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The problem is, you're not understanding what difference tens of thousands of years makes on divergences. MA1 is a 25k yo sample from the upper paleolithic culture and the ANE genome no longer existed in the same form by the "younger Dryas" or neolithic.
    My problem is that you're not responding to my questions, but rather avoid them by answering what tyou seem to "read between the lines".

    First off: The Malta-population as of 24-25.OOO years ago did actually disapear during the LGM, already. Thus we can't relate their specific genome to a specific history beyond the LGM.
    Although we may conclude that ONE part of the population they belonged to - populating paleolithic Eurasia - did indeed survive the LGM, to make it through the YD as well. But NONE of the paleolithic populations east of the Baltic seem to be part of those refugiants. Which clearly indicates that these specific lines have gone extinct - as the bottleneck and the founder-effects of the YD happened.

    That's what ended up happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    ... the Ancestral North Eurasians+similar popualtions had mixed in with other human populations by this time and what looks like "extinction" to you is just genetic diffusion. The closest thing that came to it were the West Siberian hunter gatherers and the later Botai but otherwise, ANE ended up over much of Europe and Asia and even the Americas.
    The descendants of the paleolithic survivors did indeed spread "all over Eurasia" as well as to the east-coast of America. Probably also to the east-coast of America - as the famous "Red-paint People" of the Maritime Archaic of the North Atlantic. Thus there are numerous evidences of archaic maritimers connecting Eurasia and America - in the very north.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Also, when you talk about the LGM refugia, understand that it refers to places surrounded by extensive ice sheets or extremely dry deserts-the two main things that prevented human habitation at the time. Siberia including the region where MA1 was found was neither. Siberia was actually mostly unglaciated-still brutally cold, but human beings can cope with cold as long as there's food. So the concept of refugia is not relevant here.
    You don't need to worry about my understanding of the circum-arctic climates throughout the last 5O million years and especially not about the last 12O.OOO (not to mention the last 12.OOO) years. I started looking into that well over 3O years ago, as the quartenary geology of the circum-arctic was still a young and the paleolithic studies were still young off-shoots from their various branches of science. So, again - before you can gove some examples of human refugia surviving EAST of the Baltic during the LGM and the YD you're line of arguments ends up in bind-posts or black boxes - whee all kinds of irrelavant hypes can be manufactured.

    Without some real people existing, to carry the basis of the present Eurasian Genomes onwards through the climatical holocausts of the LGM and the YD, there is no real history left to discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    .
    The Onge are a related group to the original hunter gatherers of S and SE Asia, yes. As for Iranian HGs, they themselves are a mix of ANE+Natufian. Iranian HGs would later become Iran_N and spread eastwards.
    So what other group would be needed to form what you call "hunter gatherers of S and SE Asia"?
    What Iranian HG do you actually refer to?

    Regarding the origin of the Natufian they seem to be closely related to the Ibermaurusian culture that survived the climatical abruptions of northern Eurasia from a afe distance, along the southern shores of the Meds. They have a common ancestor of y-dna E1, that may have split with the European macro-group F long before the LGM. Still they re-created a network of relations as soon as the descendants of the artic survivors reached south of the Alps and Pyrenees - with kills ot make boats able to cross open oceans. The Capsian culture may seem to be a result of that mix.

    So the "ANE" you refer to is stil clouded in mystery - unless you're able to clearify where on earth they survived the period known as the Late Weichselian glaciations.
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-13-2021 at 12:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    By now, this information is already outdated. There is a work in 2020 on the dating of human sites in the Southern Urals. Apparently, it is these sites that mark the exit of R1/ANE populations from Siberia to Europe.
    How "apparent" is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    "THE AGE OF UPPER PALEOLITHIC MONUMENTS IN THE CAVES OF KAPOVA AND IGNATIEVSKAYA (SOUTHERN URALS): REVISION OF RADIOCARBON DATES AND THEIR interpretation "
    " Available 14 14C dates (see Table. 1) indicate that the Shulgan-Tash cave was visited/used by Upper Paleolithic man between 20,600 and 16,100 years ago. For Ignatiev Cave, the interval of visits based on the results of three calibrated dates is 18,300-15,400 years ago (Table 2). The Late Paleolithic age of visits to the caves can be considered reliably determined.
    This means what we already knew - Kapova was, like Pertuna outside of Swidrien, populated before and after an inter-stadial, but not d-u-r-i-n-g.
    Which means that the local populations withdraw to warmer areas to survive the cold-dips, before returning. A similar pattern of back-and-forth-movements have been duely studied in the Rhine-valley, where people moved from the reindeer-mountains of the upper valley to the mounths of the Rhine, at the shores of the Gulfstream, during cold-phases of the Late Weichsel.

    Thus Kapova doesn't prove a continuity needed to make a genetic impact of the present Eurasian Genome(s). Considering that the human beings that habitated Cave Kapova shared the destiny of their contemporary mamoths and whooly rhinos we simply can't assume that they had any impact on the genome of the founding fathers that re-produced and multiplied as the LGM turned into the Billeroed/Alleroed oscilations. it would be THEIR descendants - of a specific LGM-refugia, like the one found at the lower Djepr, that founded the branch of eastbound explorers and pioneers able to reuse Cape Kapova and other UP sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post

    PS: Moreover, in the archaeological sense, this is the same archaeological culture as in the parking lot where MA1 was discovered
    Sure was. The eastern branch of the paleolithic wasn't much different from their trading-partners out west, from whom they traded the salt needed to survive the high-arctic climates north of Kaukasus and Kandahar.

    You basic problem, though, is that NONE of them survived the Younger Dryas. Simply because that small millennia was much WORSE than the the five millennial long LGM - in terms of decimating and eradicating entire species from the face of Eurasia. Thus the new datings from the Alleroed/Billeroed don't mean anything to the major issue of this discussion, which is the genome made by the Holocene survivors - who descended from a handful of men and women able to survive the most extinction event in the historu of Eurasia - that started first 12.93O BP and ended just about 11.9OO, when again a new 'shuffle' of genes could start yeat another re-population of Western Eurasia. Thuis time to stay on - untill our very days - as uralian and/or indo-european speakers.
    Last edited by Boreas; 05-13-2021 at 01:43 AM.

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    Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG (EHG) 9500 BCE of approximately this period is a direct descendant of just the population of MA1 and Russia_AfontovaGora3

    By the time of the Late Dryas, part of the R1 population had already crossed the Urals and could well have survived the cold snap in the Pontic-Caspian region (Kuban, Crimea), although I think that part of R1 remained in Central Asia and entered Europe around 7,000-6,000 BCE. As you know, some R1s (for example, Villabruna or Iron_Gates_HG) managed to go deep into Europe.

    As for the Svider culture, it is true that this population moved from the West and reached the eastern Baltic, Moscow and the Don, but no further. This population did not reach the Volga. I think it was as a result of the mixing of EHG and Svider population, probably haplogroup I, that mixed populations of quasi - WHG-Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and south-eastern hunter-gatherers (Ukr-Meso).
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 05-13-2021 at 04:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG (EHG) 9500 BCE of approximately this period is a direct descendant of just the population of MA1 and Russia_AfontovaGora3

    By the time of the Late Dryas, part of the R1 population had already crossed the Urals and could well have survived the cold snap in the Pontic-Caspian region (Kuban, Crimea), although I think that part of R1 remained in Central Asia and entered Europe around 7,000-6,000 BCE. As you know, some R1s (for example, Villabruna or Iron_Gates_HG) managed to go deep into Europe.

    As for the Svider culture, it is true that this population moved from the West and reached the eastern Baltic, Moscow and the Don, but no further. This population did not reach the Volga. I think it was as a result of the mixing of EHG and Svider population, probably haplogroup I, that mixed populations of quasi - WHG-Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and south-eastern hunter-gatherers (Ukr-Meso).
    I do not think Sidelkino can be modeled only with Afontova Gora. It seems that it needs also a WHG source to exist. Sidelkino is east of the Volga IIRC ( Samara oblast). So WHG made it east of the Volga too. Every EHG to exist needs WHG in it. All in all Sidelkino probably has 30% WHG.

    Sidelkino :

    Target: RUS_Sidelkino_HG -- Distance: 1.8837% / 0.01883717
    51.4 UKR_Meso
    23.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
    23.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    1.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.2 GEO_CHG



    Target: RUS_Sidelkino_HG -- Distance: 2.0100% / 0.02009957
    65.4 UKR_Meso
    28.2 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    6.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-13-2021 at 06:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I do not think Sidelkino can be modeled only with Afontova Gora. It seems that it needs also a WHG source to exist. Sidelkino is east of the Volga IIRC ( Samara oblast). So WHG made it east of the Volga too. Every EHG to exist needs WHG in it. All in all Sidelkino probably has 30% WHG.

    Sidelkino :

    Target: RUS_Sidelkino_HG -- Distance: 1.8837% / 0.01883717
    51.4 UKR_Meso
    23.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
    23.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    1.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.2 GEO_CHG



    Target: RUS_Sidelkino_HG -- Distance: 2.0100% / 0.02009957
    65.4 UKR_Meso
    28.2 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    6.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    Swiderian were in Crimea already around 10000 BC. No wonder they are probably the western component that formed EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG (EHG) 9500 BCE of approximately this period is a direct descendant of just the population of MA1 and Russia_AfontovaGora3

    By the time of the Late Dryas, part of the R1 population had already crossed the Urals and could well have survived the cold snap in the Pontic-Caspian region (Kuban, Crimea), although I think that part of R1 remained in Central Asia and entered Europe around 7,000-6,000 BCE. As you know, some R1s (for example, Villabruna or Iron_Gates_HG) managed to go deep into Europe.
    1. There's a lot of famous could-have-beens in the world of historic re-constructions and dito speculations. Experts like Marek Zwelebil (et al) actually spent some years looking for evidence of a Pontic-Caspian and/or Pontic-Carpatian refugia - in vain. Thus they had to conclude that the Swidrien were the origin of the first, post-glacial populations of Crimea, rather than the oposite. Thus you need to come up with some new and exceptional evidence - of both climatical and archaeological nature - to further an exceptional claim like that.

    2. I don't think there are anyone doubting that the herders/armers anestral to todays R1a and R1b bifuricated way west of the Urals. Moreover - the animals they domesticated were not found east of the Western Baltic between the LGM and the YD. Like with Fenno-Scandia, the first return of caprovids, horses and bovids to the Eastern Baltic, Carelia and Volga - after the YD - was actually brought there, as ready-made domestiates during the mesolithic/neolithic transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    As for the Svider culture, it is true that this population moved from the West and reached the eastern Baltic, Moscow and the Don, but no further. This population did not reach the Volga. I think it was as a result of the mixing of EHG and Svider population, probably haplogroup I, that mixed populations of quasi - WHG-Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and south-eastern hunter-gatherers (Ukr-Meso).
    The Swidrien branched to the South-East (Vistula-Bug-Priyat-Djepr) as well as to the North-East (Kunda-Volga-Samara). This is why you may find y-dna I2 at the Black Sea as well as the Volga-Samara-area, at the western shores of the Caspian ice-lake, area during the mesolithic. We may note that the same y-dna I2 seem to be the core of the western pioneers re-populating the western Baltics and the Atlantic facade, too. The new variations of R1a/b seem to come shotly after - thus producing the inovations needed to populate the fields, plains and steppes inbetween the coasts and rivers in question.

    With the help of modern science we don't need quasi-explanations for any of this, anymore. We may need some more patience, though, besides more solid scientifical work - to get the number of facts needed to complete our understanding of the climatical and cultural evolutions that formed the present Eurasian genome.

    It's rock solid knowledge though - within the paleo-zological sciences - that the Younger Dryas Extinction Event was the "Ground Zero" of the flora and fauna that re-populated Western Eurasia after ice-age. Thus we have to look at the YD rather than the LGM to find the most signifiant bottle-necks and conseuent founder-effects responsible for the 're-formed' genomes able to re-populate both Eurasia and North America - ever thereafter. In that respect the continental parts of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, where the cold was (and still is) far more severe than the coastal areas at the same latitudes. A fast check on todays biotopical maps may still - ten millennias into the Holocene - give you a basic clue about that.

    The last mamoths to live in Siberia died out along the wolly rhinos - during the LGM. Except from the branch that emigrated to the milder west, where the less sturdy European mammoths had died out, too. Thus the sturdy Siberians suirvived the LGM as a specie - in the Baltic. Where they actually thrived and multiplied during the Alleroed, until the sudden climate-shock of the YD decimated them all - in less than a generation - around 12.93 yrs ago. Luckily some small group(s) of human beings were able to hide out in underground dwellings with fireplaces effective enough to keep them alive - in the proximity of both SEA-food and freshwater - prominent to provide the proteins, vitamins and MINERALS needed for their most sturdy off-springs to grow, thrive and mature into re-production. Thus we have to look fo the occidental refugia(s) to find an explanation to the start of the transport of salts and minerals needed to pioneer the re-population of the rivers, lakes and plains of continental Europe, as well as the steppes, taiga and tundra of central and north-eastern Asia...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    1. There's a lot of famous could-have-beens in the world of historic re-constructions and dito speculations. Experts like Marek Zwelebil (et al) actually spent some years looking for evidence of a Pontic-Caspian and/or Pontic-Carpatian refugia - in vain. Thus they had to conclude that the Swidrien were the origin of the first, post-glacial populations of Crimea, rather than the oposite. Thus you need to come up with some new and exceptional evidence - of both climatical and archaeological nature - to further an exceptional claim like that.

    2. I don't think there are anyone doubting that the herders/armers anestral to todays R1a and R1b bifuricated way west of the Urals. Moreover - the animals they domesticated were not found east of the Western Baltic between the LGM and the YD. Like with Fenno-Scandia, the first return of caprovids, horses and bovids to the Eastern Baltic, Carelia and Volga - after the YD - was actually brought there, as ready-made domestiates during the mesolithic/neolithic transition.



    The Swidrien branched to the South-East (Vistula-Bug-Priyat-Djepr) as well as to the North-East (Kunda-Volga-Samara). This is why you may find y-dna I2 at the Black Sea as well as the Volga-Samara-area, at the western shores of the Caspian ice-lake, area during the mesolithic. We may note that the same y-dna I2 seem to be the core of the western pioneers re-populating the western Baltics and the Atlantic facade, too. The new variations of R1a/b seem to come shotly after - thus producing the inovations needed to populate the fields, plains and steppes inbetween the coasts and rivers in question.

    With the help of modern science we don't need quasi-explanations for any of this, anymore. We may need some more patience, though, besides more solid scientifical work - to get the number of facts needed to complete our understanding of the climatical and cultural evolutions that formed the present Eurasian genome.

    It's rock solid knowledge though - within the paleo-zological sciences - that the Younger Dryas Extinction Event was the "Ground Zero" of the flora and fauna that re-populated Western Eurasia after ice-age. Thus we have to look at the YD rather than the LGM to find the most signifiant bottle-necks and conseuent founder-effects responsible for the 're-formed' genomes able to re-populate both Eurasia and North America - ever thereafter. In that respect the continental parts of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, where the cold was (and still is) far more severe than the coastal areas at the same latitudes. A fast check on todays biotopical maps may still - ten millennias into the Holocene - give you a basic clue about that.

    The last mamoths to live in Siberia died out along the wolly rhinos - during the LGM. Except from the branch that emigrated to the milder west, where the less sturdy European mammoths had died out, too. Thus the sturdy Siberians suirvived the LGM as a specie - in the Baltic. Where they actually thrived and multiplied during the Alleroed, until the sudden climate-shock of the YD decimated them all - in less than a generation - around 12.93 yrs ago. Luckily some small group(s) of human beings were able to hide out in underground dwellings with fireplaces effective enough to keep them alive - in the proximity of both SEA-food and freshwater - prominent to provide the proteins, vitamins and MINERALS needed for their most sturdy off-springs to grow, thrive and mature into re-production. Thus we have to look fo the occidental refugia(s) to find an explanation to the start of the transport of salts and minerals needed to pioneer the re-population of the rivers, lakes and plains of continental Europe, as well as the steppes, taiga and tundra of central and north-eastern Asia...
    The very fact that the autosomal ANE/EHG profile did not become extinct during the Late Dryas, but rather survived and formed subsequent autosomal profiles, for example, the steppe autosomal profile already refutes all these fantastic hypotheses about complete extinction.

    Let's take at least a sample of PES001 with an age of 10700 years BC almost in the Far North. Even in this region at that time there were people living. Naturally people lived in more southern latitudes
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 05-13-2021 at 10:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    First off: The Malta-population as of 24-25.OOO years ago did actually disapear during the LGM, already. Thus we can't relate their specific genome to a specific history beyond the LGM.
    Although we may conclude that ONE part of the population they belonged to - populating paleolithic Eurasia - did indeed survive the LGM, to make it through the YD as well. But NONE of the paleolithic populations east of the Baltic seem to be part of those refugiants. Which clearly indicates that these specific lines have gone extinct - as the bottleneck and the founder-effects of the YD happened.
    The Malta Buret culture may or may not have disappeared without leaving any direct descendants. The point is that either Malta or a different but genetically identical culture from the same general area(i.e. southern Siberia/Mongolia/northern Central Asia) impacted the make-up of people as diverse as Native Americans, South/Central Asians, and Europeans. Arguing about who it was exactly is hairsplitting but the fact that a group of people from deep within northern Asia provided genetic input that is now widespread in modern populations is not debatable.


    The descendants of the paleolithic survivors did indeed spread "all over Eurasia" as well as to the east-coast of America. Probably also to the east-coast of America - as the famous "Red-paint People" of the Maritime Archaic of the North Atlantic. Thus there are numerous evidences of archaic maritimers connecting Eurasia and America - in the very north.
    Ah, so the old Solutrean hypothesis huh? Isn't it far more likely, and far more reasonable that it was actually a population from NE Siberia that moved into North America and settled it either by crossing the Bering land bridge or by utilizing boats along the coast than some obscure, unknown ancient group from Europe sailing all the way over to the east coast of north America? Especially considering that we have proof that the people of NE Siberia are far more genetically linked to Native Americans than ANY group of Europeans, ancient or alive.

    You don't need to worry about my understanding of the circum-arctic climates throughout the last 5O million years and especially not about the last 12O.OOO (not to mention the last 12.OOO) years. I started looking into that well over 3O years ago, as the quartenary geology of the circum-arctic was still a young and the paleolithic studies were still young off-shoots from their various branches of science. So, again - before you can gove some examples of human refugia surviving EAST of the Baltic during the LGM and the YD you're line of arguments ends up in bind-posts or black boxes - whee all kinds of irrelavant hypes can be manufactured.

    Without some real people existing, to carry the basis of the present Eurasian Genomes onwards through the climatical holocausts of the LGM and the YD, there is no real history left to discuss.
    Okay, you need to provide actual sources to document this supposed near extinction of the human population at the very end of the LMG/Younger Dryas. I'm aware of the Toba extinction event and a few others but I can't find anything about an LGM/YD severe extinction on the scale that all human beings north of a particular latitude only continued to exist in one continent.


    So what other group would be needed to form what you call "hunter gatherers of S and SE Asia"?
    What Iranian HG do you actually refer to?
    They were their own group. No other is needed. The Iranian HGs Im referring to are Hotu hunter gatherers.

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