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Thread: DF98 - House of Wettin - royal BigY test

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    DF98 - House of Wettin - royal BigY test

    Iain's announcement into the U106 Yahoo discussion forum on a Big-Y result which became available last Friday. Additional work, including getting more royal relative wanna-be's tested will be occurring.


    Dear all,

    We are now in possession of the BigY results from our contact in the House of Wettin - the ancestral house of several European royal families, including the incumbent British House of Windsor. The results illuminate the early history of the House, and help uncover a previously unknown British branch of this ancient House. Below are some background details and results of the tests. This information has been put together for a variety of people with a variety of levels of expertise, both within and outwith the U106 group. Every detail may not be understandable by the lay person, but I will be happy to provide further explanation if necessary. Equally, there will be a lot of background that people will already be aware of.

    DETAILS OF THE TESTERS

    The BigY tester has asked us to keep his details private. He is a member of the Ernestine Wettin line. He is a 36/37 match to a second sample we have from a deceased member of the Belgian royal household. They share a common ancestor in Francis, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (1750-1806), the grandfather of both Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, and antecedent of all extant Ernestine Wettin lines. We do not have direct contact with him, but use Brad Michael Little as an intermediary.

    HISTORY OF THE HOUSE

    The confirmed history of the House extends back to 1098 AD, with the birth of Conrad the Great. Family tradition, supported by patchy historical records, traces it back further to circa 916 AD with the birth of Dietrich I. Due to its importance in European history, several historians have attempted to trace the line back further, though without consensus. Details of the early individuals can also be found in the U106 Yahoo forum, under the Files section, in the "DF98 Kings' Cluster" folder. For people who are not part of the Yahoo group, these are available on request, or publically on Wikipedia.

    TEST RESULTS

    The latest BigY test results show a good return, with almost 11M base pairs covered. Formally, the House of Wettin belongs to a clade defined by the following SNP mutations: U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z306 > Z304 > DF98 > S18823 > S22069 > S8350. There are a number of equivalent SNPs at several of these levels, especially the S8350 level, identifying a long gap between the formation of S22069 and S8350. The Wettin test itself has seven unique SNPs at Build 37 positions 14436099 (G->T), 17791025 (G->A), 19074816 (T->G), 19468450 (T->G), 21661818 (A->G), 23138525 (L1271) (G->A), and 24355845 (T->C). They form a unique lineage within the S8350 group.

    CONTEXT IN THE S8350 GROUP

    A large cluster of families forms a group at the S8350 level. Geographically, these are almost entirely English, Scots and Irish (mostly Ulster Scots) with one presumed Belgian. Four of these families have taken a BigY test which proves their location in this group: Butler, Curry, Wallace and Keys. Three groups are identifiable below S8350: the Wettin family itself, the Bulter family (with associated Fowler and Marsh families), and a Scottish group comprising of the Curry, Wallace, Keys and Holmes families.

    A large number of other families form a tight STR cluster around them: Cox, Capell, Brown, Hunt, Kidder, Dean, Todd, van Welden, Templeton, Thompson, Hardin, Pitman, Pearson and Yates. Details of how these individuals relate to each other and the rest of DF98 can again be found in the Files section of the forum, under the "DF98 Kings' Cluster" folder (or are available on request).

    ORIGIN OF THE S8350 GROUP

    This cluster - including the House of Wettin - shares a common ancestor some time in the recent past. Defining an exact age is difficult, but the large amount of data we have for this group has made the task much easier. The method I use here combines an SNP dating method and an STR dating method. Individually, these provide ages within 110 years of each other. Their combination provides my best estimate for the birth of the group's common ancestor at 1134 AD, with a 95% confidence interval of 877 - 1379 AD. These dates are valid only if a series of assumptions is true, and they do not take some facts into account, but they should still be closely indicative of the true dates. Due to constraints placed by paper trails further down the tree, I suspect the true age lies in the earlier part of this range.

    The predicted DNA-based dates have a substantial overlap with the historical paper trail of the Wettin family, such that there is (formally) a 95.2% chance that members of the S8350 cluster are descended from Dietrich I. Successfully finding the common ancestor of this group is therefore of some historical importance.

    S22069 is a 3000-year-old German-dominated group, concentrated in the eastern Rhine valley between Cologne and Strasbourg. We have every reason to think that the ancestors of the House of Wettin ultimately came from this region before taking a (perhaps circuitous) route that led them the short distance to the Harz Mountains. My supposition is that a member of the House of Wettin came to southern England during or shortly after the Norman conquest, then was very successful in procreating and spreading their progeny, leading to a rapid diversification of the S8350 group. I suspect that one of his close descendents moved up to Scotland sometime a little afterwards, around the time of the Scottish wars of independence, at which point the 19087058 sub-clade was formed. This is so far still speculation, and yet to have any concrete evidential support.

    PROGRESS FORWARD

    It is very likely that the early ancestors within this group are well-recorded historical individuals. I will continue trying to make sense of the history of this British part of the House of Wettin, in order to uncover the ancestor of this branch and link them back to the House of Wettin. As part of this, I will be trying to reach out to the other families in this group that I have not yet been able to get in contact with. I will encourage them to test further so that we can understand how people within this cluster are related to each other. Ultimately, the aim will be to find someone with a long paper trail leading back to the individual we are looking for. This will take some time, effort, and money on several people's behalf. Contributions to the group fund for this project are always welcome!

    Periodically, I will keep the U106 and DF98 groups updated as new information comes in. I will update those families who are directly involved more often.

    Best wishes,

    Iain.

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    No idea if anyone's still reading this thread, but I had a Family Finder match come in at R-Z306. I recognized his name, he's the son of one of my cousins on my mom's side.

    We're at 425 cM, longest block 76 and that was such a hit Family Tree sent me an automated email about it when it came back. I know that side of the family has ancestry from both Ireland and Holland, if that's of any relevance to this thread.

    I read that Z306 is part of the U106 Kings Cluster. I imagine my match is posting this on his own somewhere, so I'll stop but I thought that this ancestry (Ireland and the Netherlands) might be relevant here.
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    Reading the first post makes me wonder if the shared ancestor of the House of Wettin and the British Isles matches may have been a few hundred years earlier than the start of the date range (877 AD), during the Saxon migration to England as the House of Wettin originated in Old Saxony before expanding towards the Harz Mountains. This migration started in the ~400s and continued until around 560/570 AD. And there was probably continued contact between Old Saxony and Saxon-England for a few more generations as they shared a common language and culture. Who, knows? Maybe there were marriages between the Anglo-Saxon royalty and the continental counterparts for an extended period.

    The oldest known Wettin was from Liesgau, in the Duchy of Saxony
    Theodoric I (c. 916 – c. 976), German Dietrich I, also known as Thierry I of Liesgau, is considered the oldest traceable member of the House of Wettin.
    Significant numbers [of Saxons] settled in large parts of Great Britain in the early Middle Ages and formed part of the merged group of Anglo-Saxons who eventually organised the first united Kingdom of England.[1] Many Saxons however remained in Germania (Old Saxony c. 531–804),
    Or possibly from these sources in Gaul

    A Saxon unit of laeti settled at Bayeux – the Saxones Baiocassenses.[22] These Saxons became subjects of Clovis I late in the 5th century. The Saxons of Bayeux comprised a standing army and were often called upon to serve alongside the local levy of their region in Merovingian military campaigns. They were ineffective against the Breton Waroch in this capacity in 579.[23] In 589, the Saxons wore their hair in the Breton fashion at the orders of Fredegund and fought with them as allies against Guntram.[24] Beginning in 626, the Saxons of the Bessin were used by Dagobert I for his campaigns against the Basques. One of their own, Aeghyna, was created a dux over the region of Vasconia.[25]
    or this source
    ...iin Normandy are numerous -thun villages in the north of France, in Boulonnais, for example Alincthun, Verlincthun, and Pelingthun.[27] showing with other toponyms, an important Saxon or Anglo-Saxon settlement. comparing the concentration of -ham/-hem (Anglo-Saxon hām > home) toponyms in the Bessin and in the Boulonnais gives more examples of Saxon settlement.[28] In the area known today as Normandy, the -ham cases of Bessin are unique – they do not exist elsewhere.

    Around the city of Caen and in the Bessin (Vierville-sur-Mer, Bénouville, Giverville, Hérouvillette), excavations have yielded numerous examples of Anglo-Saxon jewellery, design elements, settings, and weapons. All of these things were discovered in cemeteries in a context of the 5th, 6th and 7th centuries AD
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-14-2018 at 03:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Reading the first post makes me wonder if the shared ancestor of the House of Wettin and the British Isles match may have been a few hundred years earlier than the start of the date range (877 AD), during the Saxon migration to England as the House of Wettin originated in Old Saxony before expanding towards the Harz Mountains. This migration started in the ~400s and continued until around 560/570 AD. And there was probably continued contact between Old Saxony and Saxon-England for a few more generations as they shared a common language and culture. Who, knows? Maybe there were marriages between the Anglo-Saxon royalty and the continental counterparts for an extended period.





    Or possibly from these sources in Gaul

    or this source
    I was reading the first post too. Particular reference to distribution of this Y line in the Norman era. We might usually associate an "elite" Norman origin with Scandinavia not Germany, although of course not all "Normans" had that origin.
    I think you are right we have to be cautious about assuming one-way migration particularly amongst "High Born" into Britain. Aelfthryth the daughter of Alfred the Great married Baldwin II of Flanders for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    I was reading the first post too.
    I read the first post, too! On that side of my family we're related to Bradford from the Mayflower, I'm in Family Tree's GSMD Project. Those people started off in England then on to Holland if I'm remembering my history correctly. That Z306 is in there somewhere.
    Last edited by curiousII; 01-14-2018 at 11:23 AM.
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    I just checked the GSMD Project and there's only one Z306 in it, in the John Tilley group. I have some Tilleys show up in my FF, no idea if that means anything.

    But that's from my mom's side of the family and their story to tell, if there is one at all. No idea where that Z306 came from, but I know that side of the family had a Dutch von Voelkker in it from the 17th Century and you hear that the Germans were quite stringent on who they handed a "von" out to. Maybe it was picked up after the Pilgrims got the boot from England or maybe even before that, but that's their story. I'm just DF27 that appears to have no aristocracy in it at all anywhere judging from this discussion: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....kyn-de-Moravia
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    An update to the DF98 region analysis is underway. Monitor Iain's page at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html for new drafts.

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    I'm somewhat familiar with this line. For years (since 1976 when I was told) the House of Wettin line was of particular interest to me based on a family story passed down that turned out to be untrue after dna testing (I'm U152). Back in Spring 2012 I came across Brad Michael Little's efforts to get samples from living individuals from this line. Once he got the samples and made the STRs public, I finally had the chance to prove/disprove the story. Back then the FTDNA STRs results arrived in groups...1st 1-12 then the next, and so on. The first 12 came in and I had 2 or 3 differences, but by the the time I got to 37 markers I knew we were not of the same line. That launched my quest to find my father's mystery paternal great grandfather via dna testing...still looking.

    While not genetically connected, one theory I have on the naming of my father's paternal grandfather "Edward Leopold Mitchell", is that he was named after two recently deceased House of Wettin Princes. Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany (Edward VII's brother) died in 1884, and Prince Albert Victor Christian Edward, Duke of Clarence and Avondale (Edward VII's son, known as Prince Eddy/Edward to the public) died in 1892.

    After I had 67 marker results but before I had SNP results, I thought for sure I would be either U106 or L21 (due to my paternal line come from Britain). U152 never factored in to my thinking...why should it. It was a minor player in the Isles and the odds were against it.

    Sorry for the tangent. Back to the true purpose of this thread.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-14-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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    I think we need much more ancient (or medieval) DNA testing of the newer SNPs discovered by Big Y (in connection the S18823 Wettin side of DF98 and the S1911 side which I am a part of... also note we have a very good candidate for a Norman family via the Dutton and Warburton testers of that group via the Duttons and Warburtons of Cheshire etc - their SNPs appear to split off in the time period of the when that family was active in Cheshire - but Dr. Iain knows more about that)... we need those aDNA samples tested from continental in a KNOWN archaeological context i.e. Saxon, or Frankish, or what-have-you ;-). That's my opinion at least - as far as getting some of the down stream SNPs of DF98 and S18823/S1911 found in the archaeological record... though S1911 and downstream SNPs HAVE been found in a Roman context circa 1800 years ago in the York gladiator 6drif-3 - see my sig ;-)!

    Cheers,
    Charlie
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Reading the first post makes me wonder if the shared ancestor of the House of Wettin and the British Isles matches may have been a few hundred years earlier than the start of the date range (877 AD), during the Saxon migration to England as the House of Wettin originated in Old Saxony before expanding towards the Harz Mountains. This migration started in the ~400s and continued until around 560/570 AD. And there was probably continued contact between Old Saxony and Saxon-England for a few more generations as they shared a common language and culture. Who, knows? Maybe there were marriages between the Anglo-Saxon royalty and the continental counterparts for an extended period.





    Or possibly from these sources in Gaul

    or this source
    Looks a bit too far fetched to me, the Wettins are form the tenth century long after the migration, and were from the Harz Mountains (the German wikipedia mentions the possibility of Sorb heritage). Any how the relationship with the Saxons of the migration time is thin or not there....

    The Saxons of the migration time were sea raiders from the coast.....not from the Harz.

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