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Thread: R1b Bell Beakers, Autosomal and Maternal DNA

  1. #1
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    R1b Bell Beakers, Autosomal and Maternal DNA

    I was able to map most of the RISE Bell Beaker samples to the Price 2004 stronium isotope study. Below is the table I built that also includes David's comments on how the samples look autosomally. Nothing stood out when comparing Price's migrant/local/male/female/Old BB/Young BB model with any of David's findings. One thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European" and the two U5 samples look more northern/eastern. Perhaps David can run the rest of the BB samples through his K9 model and give us more insight.



    http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_M...al_Compare.png
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I think that Vučedol R1b from Szécsényi-Nagy is an indicator that the P312 in Beaker did not come from Iberia. If whatever early Beaker was actually began in Iberia, then it began minus R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I was able to map most of the RISE Bell Beaker samples to the Price 2004 stronium isotope study. Below is the table I built that also includes David's comments on how the samples look autosomally. Nothing stood out when comparing Price's migrant/local/male/female/Old BB/Young BB model with any of David's findings. One thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European" and the two U5 samples look more northern/eastern. Perhaps David can run the rest of the BB samples through his K9 model and give us more insight.



    http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_M...al_Compare.png
    Do the isotope studies tell a travel direction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Do the isotope studies tell a travel direction?
    Grupe 1997, the original study that collected the Bavarian samples, said this...

    The overall direction of migration for the Bell Beaker people, based on the Sr isotope data is from NE to SW.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    ...and then they expanded their study in 2004 to include Czech, Hungarian and Austrian samples and had this to say...

    While it is possible to identify migrants, it is difficult to determine the specific
    homeland of these individuals because of the complex geology of south-central
    Europe and our lack of knowledge about surficial deposits at the site locations and
    how they are reflected in local biologically available strontium isotope. At present
    it is not possible to provide more detail with regard to place of origin. Within
    south-central Europe there are multiple localities where any given strontium
    isotope ratio might occur.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 07-17-2015 at 02:32 AM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Do the isotope studies tell a travel direction?
    yes, both this study and a tooth study claimed that their was a migration of eastern bell beakers towards the west. Its obvious now that this migration carried r1b with it.

    I can't remember exactly but I thought there was another isotopic study which also supported a migration of bell beakers from east to west.

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    Okay, I read it and it said that the Danube from Bavaria to Hungary is almost identical and hard to tell the direction of flow. Some do stand out, and I do remember the other study on the movement from NE to SW, which probably means the Czech Republic.

    http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...Central_Europe

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  15. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Nothing stood out when comparing Price's migrant/local/male/female/Old BB/Young BB model with any of David's findings. One thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European" and the two U5 samples look more northern/eastern.
    The only thing I note (because I was looking for it) is that we have more examples of low EHG guys from Germany than the Czech republic. But the numbers are low and it really can't say much. I would like to see a large number of early bell beakers from DE, CZ, and HU and compare their levels of EHG. Since the yamnaya had a direct input into hungary and possible CZ if you look at David Anthony's 3b course I would expect early HU to have the most EHG.

    But of course its more complicated than this. Germany could have a few small groups of BB very high in EHG that raced through the country even though the avg BB in germany wasn't that high in EHG. Also, CZ could have gotten some of its EHG from CW (that doesn't mean CW was the main source just a minor one).

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  17. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Okay, I read it and it said that the Danube from Bavaria to Hungary is almost identical and hard to tell the direction of flow. Some do stand out, and I do remember the other study on the movement from NE to SW, which probably means the Czech Republic.

    http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...Central_Europe
    I thought that was the same study. They basically said that the "local" signatures could very well have come from downstream danube, but they wouldn't be able to tell. The could recognize the movement of beakers from northeast of the bavarian danube, around the CZ mountains, to southwest of the bavarian danube due to the different minerals different soils. They found a pretty high percentage of migrants from the northeast.

    The impression I had is that there wasn't evidence of migration from the west in those samples, but I don't know how well they would be able to detect migrations from the west.

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    There's a K10 here with all of these Rise BB samples and something resembling a steppe component.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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