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Thread: Haplogroup R-Z142 and the "Kinman Hypothesis"

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    Haplogroup R-Z142 and the "Kinman Hypothesis"

    Hi all,
    For the past couple of months, I have begun trying to study the origin and evolution of Haplogroup R-Z142 (within R-Z49), and particularly its recently discovered subclade (presently called R-S18325 on the YFull tree, but which will probably be renamed as the slightly larger R-FGC22963 haplogroup). Anyway, I am calling the following ideas the "Kinman Hypothesis" for short, and welcome any comments or evidence either in favor or against my ideas (divided into 4 parts):
    (1) I have concluded that both Haplogroup R-Z142 and its subclade R-FGC22963 most likely originated in the southwestern part of the state of Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany, in or near the Black Forest. The earliest branching family of R-FGC22963, Bendell, seems to have spread out from that area into other areas of Germany, as well as west across the Rhine into Alsace-Lorraine, France (there usually spelled Bendel). They would much later enter England and probably give rise to the Bovingdon/Buffington families by the 13th Century. Another important branch includes the Skinner and Zur Bruegg families (the latter around Bern, Switzerland, not far south of the Black Forest). And yet another major branch are the Langleys and their descendants (called Subgroup L in the Langley Project at FTDNA). There is also a basal branch of R-Z142 including the families Stewart, Hill, Perrott (of France, then England), and others.
    (2) However, perhaps my most novel idea is that the descendants of these families who ended up in England are concentrated in Buckinghamshire, especially in the south near the Thames River. My first clue was that some of our Langleys have traced their line back to Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire, and Langleys still live there and in Burrnham and various other places in southern Bucks, and have given their name to various places in the area. Then I realized that the village of Bovingdon Green is right next to Great Marlow, and the Buffington/Bovingdon family has a long history in the area, perhaps having been a branch of the Bendells in Buckinghamshire. Buffingtons/Bovingdons also still live in Burnham (and Farnham Royal, etc.). And at some point, a Langley apparently gave rise to a line of Maner/Maynor families. And although Sir Richard Perrott ended up further west in Somersetshire, at least one branch of that family ended up in Buckinghamshire (Newport Pagnell, etc.) and adjacent Bedfordshire (birthplace of Richard Perrott, early colonist of Virginia). Descendants of the Skinner and Zur Bruegg families apparently emigrated directly from continental Europe to America. But the others, were long established in Buckinghamshire before some members emigrated to Virginia in the 1600s (and some of their descendants then moving south to North Carolina, Georgia, etc.).
    (3) The question then arose in my mind, when had these members of Haplogroup R-FGC22963 moved from France to England? I now put forward the idea that most of them came with Sir Richard Perrott of Brittany, France, who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066, and provided the Norman invasion with his quota of men and ships. Perrott was presumably a member of the Perrott family in that basal branch R-Z142* which split off just before the mutation giving rise to larger R-FGC22963 group discussed above. It seems reasonable to assume that various members of the subgroups of R-Z142 could have slowly moved together from northeast France to northwest France (before finally sending members into England, especially in 1066).
    (4) In summary, I propose that members of R-Z142 spread out from their origin (in or near the Black Forest) in all directions. However, it was the westward migration across the Rhine and then across northern France (and then into England, and later emigrations to Virginia), always by the most adventuresome members, which allowed this haplogroup to become so numerous and widespread. That some of their families would then continue together south from Virginia to the Carolinas, Georgia, and beyond, would be just a continuation of the long association these families have had for well over 4,000 years. I anticipate finding many more families in R-Z142 showing this same general pattern of western migration. Or are there other "hotspots" in England I have overlooked where these families occur together over a long period of time? Any feedback would be appreciated.
    ---------------Ken Kinman

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    One can't disprove you theory per say, but I could throw out a bunch of other possibilities as R-S18325 is estimated on the Ytree to have formed 4300 years ago.

    1. It arrived with Bell Beaker culture to Britain from the Low Countries circa 2100-2300 BC.
    2. It came out of the Urnfield culture and crossed into Britain ~3000 ybp.
    3. It came to Britain via the Hallstaat Culture 2800 years ago
    4. It came to Britain via the La Tene Culture 2500 years ago
    4. It came to Britain via the Belgae immigrants in the first and 2nd centuries BC.
    5. It came to Britain with the Roman occupation forces from Gaul and the Low Countries
    6. It was a small minority haplogroup of the Frisian/Angle/Saxon/Jute invasions 1600 years ago.
    7. It was a small minority haplogroup brought by the Danes during the Danelaw period.
    8. It came in with the Normans/Flemish 1000 years ago
    9. It arrived with the Huguenots 400 years ago.
    10. It arrived with the Palatinate Germans 400 years ago.

    It arrived from multiple waves above i.e. some S1835 arrived with Bell Beaker, more arrived with Hallstaat and Romans occupation etc.

    Some of the the more recent examples could be ruled out if you were able to prove your ancestors were in England prior to the arrival of said people, but at this point we can't really rule out the any of the earlier possibilities.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the much earlier migrations of R-S18325 (R-FGC22964) are a possibility. However, I wouldn't have expected them to have stayed together in Buckinghamshire as well as they have if they came over at those much earlier times. They would have more than likely been more scattered (or some even obliterated) after the later invasions. Many of those earlier Celts got pushed west and north into Wales, northern England, and Scotland. So I think the relatively "late" Norman invasion in 1066 (from northwestern France) is a more likely explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the much earlier migrations of R-S18325 (R-FGC22964) are a possibility. However, I wouldn't have expected them to have stayed together in Buckinghamshire as well as they have if they came over at those much earlier times. They would have more than likely been more scattered (or some even obliterated) after the later invasions. Many of those earlier Celts got pushed west and north into Wales, northern England, and Scotland. So I think the relatively "late" Norman invasion in 1066 (from northwestern France) is a more likely explanation.
    I was primarily referring to how R-S18325/R-FGC22964 and all of it's to be discovered sub branches, got to England. If I understand correctly, I believe your focus is primarily on a yet to be discovered specific subbranch of R-S18325/R-FGC22964 many levels down, localized in the Buckinghamshire area and associated with the Bovingdon/Buffington surnames.

    As you mentioned R-S18325/R-FGC22964 includes Langley. When I looked at subgroup L of the Langley project, it's not localized but rather has members from Scotland, Wales, England, and possibly France. It is possible they all came to the British Isles within the last 1000 years e.g. with the Norman Invasion, and spread to Wales and Scotland; but then you have R-S18325/R-FGC22964 member zur Brügg from Switzerland.

    You may be on to something but I think it pertains to a yet to be discovered subbranch of R-S18325/R-FGC22964.

    Just to give you an example from my own branch of Z142, Z150/Z12222. Currently there are members from Spain, the Netherlands, France, Italy, England, and Scotland. Early on Z150/Z12222 may have been in close proximity to R-S18325/R-FGC22964, possibly as you said, in or near the Black Forest, where it spread primarily North, West, and South. R-S18325/R-FGC22964 may have done the same thing.

    One level down from Z150/Z12222, on FGC12378 et al./Y3141 et al, everyone is currently from England and it may be tempting to call this a truly British branch, but
    Two levels down from Z150/Z12222, on FGC12383 members are from Spain, and the Netherlands
    Three levels down from Z150/Z12222, on FGC12401 et al/Y9080 there are 2 members both from England. This is circa 1000 BC. Again it may be tempting to say I've found the British subbranch for this line, but I'd be wise to wait to see what comes out four, five, six etc. levels down from Z150 before coming to that conclusion.

    All that to say, you will probably need to wait until additional subbranches below your line of R-S18325/R-FGC22964 are discovered before you get to the one that relates specifically to the Buckingham concentration.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 07-17-2015 at 11:28 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    Yes, my primary focus has been on R-S18325, but then expanded to the slightly larger R-FGC22963. I have just started exploring the basal R-Z142* group, but will also begin exploring other Z142 subclades. You mentioned your R-FGC12378 (within R-Z150), which apparently includes Stephen Brace. Although he apparently came from Middlesex County, I would not be surprised if he is related to the Brace families just west of London (in and around the area of Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, along with the Perrott families).

    So if the "Kinman Hypothesis" is correct, I wouldn't be surprised if the Brace line and your Mitchell line also came with Sir Richard de Perrott's forces during the Norman Invasion. The same could be true for the Mason line in my R-S18325, and the Stewart and Hill families in the basal R-142* branch. I will be exploring other R-Z142 families for possible ties with Buckinghamshire families, and would encourage others to do so as well.
    ----------------Ken

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    Very interesting, the back and forth definitely get the ideas flowing.

    Two questions though:
    1) @kinman: You mention some Langleys in group L trace to Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire. Which lines are this? My line intersects directly with a lot of the Langley L group likely before an immigrant ancestor and I have yet to confirm an immigrant ancestor. The most likely candidate is a William Langley who went to Norfolk Virginia before 1656. Where he came from as far as I've seen and researched is unknown, it's assumed he came from England (which is likely though in fairness that's an assumption too) but not from where, the assumptions are usually tied to the localities bearing the name Langley in England but that as far as I can tell is purely an assumption (though I could be missing something). Also the connection to the Norfolk Langleys as far as I have researched isn't very definitive in itself, partially since a lot of records and wills have survived from Norfolk but not all other areas in Virginia so it could be people just mapping to the most apparent option.

    2) @Mitchel: You mention Langley L group members who trace to Scotland, Wales and France, just curious what information you have on this?
    Matthew Langley

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattL View Post
    Very interesting, the back and forth definitely get the ideas flowing.

    Two questions though:
    1) @kinman: You mention some Langleys in group L trace to Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire. Which lines are this? My line intersects directly with a lot of the Langley L group likely before an immigrant ancestor and I have yet to confirm an immigrant ancestor. The most likely candidate is a William Langley who went to Norfolk Virginia before 1656. Where he came from as far as I've seen and researched is unknown, it's assumed he came from England (which is likely though in fairness that's an assumption too) but not from where, the assumptions are usually tied to the localities bearing the name Langley in England but that as far as I can tell is purely an assumption (though I could be missing something). Also the connection to the Norfolk Langleys as far as I have researched isn't very definitive in itself, partially since a lot of records and wills have survived from Norfolk but not all other areas in Virginia so it could be people just mapping to the most apparent option.

    2) @Mitchel: You mention Langley L group members who trace to Scotland, Wales and France, just curious what information you have on this?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Actually for quite some time, I didn't even pay much attention to the Langley trees tracing back from North Carolina to William Langley (died 1676, Norfolk Co., Virginia) which listed his father as William Langley (died 22 July 1652, Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire), because they were on Ancestry.com, and I couldn't find any that backed it up with solid references. But then when I saw all those related families with ties to that area (especially the Buffingtons of Bovingdon Green, which is right next to Great Marlow), I decided that perhaps they might be right (even if it was based on guess work, rather than solid evidence).

    But since they give an exact date of 22 July 1652 at Great Marlow, I assume a William Langley did die on that date, but I never had the time to figure out if he could be shown to be father of William Langley of Norfolk Co., Virginia. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it now, because I did a quick check on more of the Z142 family surnames, and several have possible relatives born in Great Marlow---such as Greenwell, Graves, Tucker, Harding, and Fay. I also want to check Hebert, Davenport, and Peacock families north of Great Marlow. Thankfully, I didn't have anything planned for this weekend. If I do find anything more definite about William Langley of Great Marlow, I'll let you know.
    --------------Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
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    Actually for quite some time, I didn't even pay much attention to the Langley trees tracing back from North Carolina to William Langley (died 1676, Norfolk Co., Virginia) which listed his father as William Langley (died 22 July 1652, Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire), because they were on Ancestry.com, and I couldn't find any that backed it up with solid references. But then when I saw all those related families with ties to that area (especially the Buffingtons of Bovingdon Green, which is right next to Great Marlow), I decided that perhaps they might be right (even if it was based on guess work, rather than solid evidence).

    But since they give an exact date of 22 July 1652 at Great Marlow, I assume a William Langley did die on that date, but I never had the time to figure out if he could be shown to be father of William Langley of Norfolk Co., Virginia. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it now, because I did a quick check on more of the Z142 family surnames, and several have possible relatives born in Great Marlow---such as Greenwell, Graves, Tucker, Harding, and Fay. I also want to check Hebert, Davenport, and Peacock families north of Great Marlow. Thankfully, I didn't have anything planned for this weekend. If I do find anything more definite about William Langley of Great Marlow, I'll let you know.
    --------------Ken
    Ahh ok... you may be correct and that may be where the Langley group comes from. Some day will figure it out.
    Matthew Langley

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    Yes, my primary focus has been on R-S18325, but then expanded to the slightly larger R-FGC22963. I have just started exploring the basal R-Z142* group, but will also begin exploring other Z142 subclades. You mentioned your R-FGC12378 (within R-Z150), which apparently includes Stephen Brace. Although he apparently came from Middlesex County, I would not be surprised if he is related to the Brace families just west of London (in and around the area of Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, along with the Perrott families).

    So if the "Kinman Hypothesis" is correct, I wouldn't be surprised if the Brace line and your Mitchell line also came with Sir Richard de Perrott's forces during the Norman Invasion. The same could be true for the Mason line in my R-S18325, and the Stewart and Hill families in the basal R-142* branch. I will be exploring other R-Z142 families for possible ties with Buckinghamshire families, and would encourage others to do so as well.
    ----------------Ken
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi all,
    As I expand into other subclades of R-Z142, I decided to first look at Stephen Brace (b. ca. 1640, London?; d. 1692, Connecticut), because he happens to be my ancestor (through a female line). I discovered that the Braci/Bracey/Brace family appeared at Stone (near Aylesbury), Buckinghamshire, very soon after Domesday Book (1086), and probably came with William the Conqueror from one of the two places named Breci in Normandy.
    Aylesbury is about half way between Great Marlow and Newton Pagnell, and being not far west of London, I am pretty confident that Stephen Brace (b. ca. 1640, London?) or his immediate ancestors came from this area of Buckinghamshire. There are still plenty of Brace families in this area after over 900 years. Anyway, I'll add him as matching my theory that most of Haplogroup R-Z142 in England came over with William the Conqueror and many of these settled in Buckinghamshire.
    ----------------Ken

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    I was just reading that at least some Mitchell families in England were apparently descendants of Radulphus, Geoffrey, Selle, and William de St. Michel, who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066 and are thought to have come from Mont de St. Michel, Normandy (near the border with Brittany). If they are the ancestors of our Mitchell, that would at least fit well with the timing I proposed in the Kinman Hypothesis. I just wonder if any of them lived in or near Buckinghamshire. Lots of Mitchell baptism records there (especially in Burnham, Aylesbury, Newport Pagnell, and Great Marlow), but it seems to be a fairly common surname elsewhere as well. Also noticed that Newport Pagnell was named for Fulk Pagnell, and that he and members of his family had dealings with the abbey of Mont de St. Michel, but that could be coincidental. But I am learning a lot about early Norman England and its continued close ties with Normandy for a long time.

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