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Thread: Z2552 (DF81, L617, YP4295 and Z15001)

  1. #21
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    All of R1b-M269 originally came from the Steppes of Eastern Europe. Question is only when and how.

    We might be the "remnants" of R1b which was native and more common here before R1a invaded us.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purickis_Lithuania View Post
    distant relation to the Romanovs who were/are R-M269
    The Romanovs are L617, really ??? If they are some other branch of M269, then we are not related (at least not after the Bronze Age).

    What about the Piast dynasty of Poland? Bones of two Mazovian Piasts from the 1500s were tested R1b.

    They are late Piasts so there could be NPEs. But I joined the FTDNA Piast Dynasty Project just in case.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It could expand in Germanic migrations, but most likely was originally Celtic and later some carriers of L617 could be Germanized.

    P312 is generally not Germanic (U106 is Germanic) and the highest concentration of L617 within Britain is in Cornwall, AFAIK.

    As of December 2016, there were at least seven families from Cornwall with L617 - more than in any other region of Britain.

    =====

    As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

    So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.
    I don’t think DF27 was originally Germanic either. I think some of it was in Spain early and some late. But because of the Quedlinburg DF27 sample, I think it was in Germany before Spain, which means DF27 could have been present in any movement out of Germany between Bell Beaker and now. I think the formation date of L617 is a must to hash out in order to figure out the connections between the various kits. If it is as old as Z2552, then from the Urnfield to Hallstatt would be likely. If 247AD, then some sort of German Migration period seems plausible.

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  5. #24
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    However, we do not have any Germans with confirmed L617, to my knowledge. L617 seems common in Iberia, Britain, perhaps Belgium, and Poland-Lithuania. In the middle there is a huge L617-free gap in the area of what is now Germany.

    And we can't blame it on too few testers because DNA tests are quite popular in Germany (especially MyHeritage, I think).

    Low number of L617 from France can be blamed on scarcity of people who test.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-03-2018 at 08:01 AM.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

    So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.
    To the extent that I disagree (not very significantly), mostly it's with an expression such as "had to be" when one is speculating. Anyway, who departed Iberia around 1492 has almost nothing to do with what was going on genetically around 300 AD (such as the spawning of the first Mr. L617 -- somewhere). When and where some Central/East Europeans of today might have acquired that mutation, or from whom, or while adhering to what branch of the larger Judaeo-Christian religious tradition, is still unknown. I think some people who had to leave Iberia 500 years ago were L617, by that time -- and they didn't all go to Brazil. But the east-to-west migration and branching within DF27 that's more apparent happened more like 2500 BC, not between 300 and 1500 AD.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Webb's guess (Germanic migrations) is closer to what actually scrambled these eggs. But IIRC he has a thing for Visigoths; so I also wouldn't be surprised if this migration theory is just another instance of that interest.

    If enough guesses are made, one of them may turn out to be right.

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  8. #26
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    Razyn and Purickis,

    I sent you a private message related to the possible connection between Polish and Lithuanian branches of L617.

    I sent you a PM about it because I prefer not to publish my surname publicly here.

    I know that my surname exists also among ethnic Poles from what is now Belarus (but before WW2 was Poland).

    This family is not closely related, but perhaps many centuries ago there was a connection and they might be L617.

    Poland-Lithuania were united for as long as England and Scotland, and many Polish families migrated to Lithuania.

    =====

    I recommend you this extremely interesting interview with prof. Robert Frost about Poland, Lithuania and Scotland:





    ^^^
    I would really like to know if my numerous Scottish matches based on STR markers are also positive for L617 SNP.

    About Polish-Scottish connections (but my surname doesn't appear to be of Scottish or any other Non-Slavic origin):



    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-03-2018 at 12:23 AM.

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    All of R1b-M269 originally came from the Steppes of Eastern Europe. Question is only when and how.

    We might be the "remnants" of R1b which was native and more common here before R1a invaded us.
    From an R1 perspective, it looks like Poland was R1a(CWC)>R1b(B>R1a(local+eastern) again.

    L617 is just one leaf among many under DF27+ who have a similar west to east distribution. It could be that the late bronze age brought warriors and traders of metals from SW to NE that seems to match the distribution of many DF27 splits. However, the origin of DF27 itself could be somewhere like north eastern France which may not be all that far fetched. Take for instance the Tollense battle which has at least one male pegged as plotting close to modern French Basques, no doubt indicating a non-local origin south west of the battle, and a possible candidate for a DF27+ male, all the way back in 1000BC. (Local lines of R1b in northern Germany were probably R1b-L238, U106 among others)
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Field: R-U106
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    From an R1 perspective, it looks like Poland was R1a(CWC)>R1b(BB)>R1a(local+eastern) again.
    Actually I'm not sure if R1a is older in Poland than R1b. For example we have very old R1b from Samborzec Beakers:

    Samborzec (Southern Poland) ca. 2800-2200 BC, Bell Beaker, 3 samples of R1b-M269 (what subclades could it be?):

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...ka-poland.html

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...g-page_25.html

    Only one sample has relatively high coverage:

    Bell Beaker Poland Samborzec [I4253 / RISE1124 / grave no. 13], M, 2571-2208 BCE 452974 SNPs, R1b1a1a2

    ====

    As for Iron Age Poland, things do not look good for R1b so far, because preliminary results indicate mostly I1-M253:



    ^^^
    As you can see out of 16 Iron Age (likely Germanic?) individuals tested so far 8 (50%) were I1 and only 1 was R1b.

    And here something about their autosomal DNA:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-03-2018 at 05:57 AM.

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  13. #29
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    One problem is that in Iron Age Poland inhabitants used different (biritual) burial practices.

    Some burials were inhumations (skeletal) but others, maybe the majority, were cremations.

    Obviously with current technology we can only obtain DNA samples from skeletal burials.

    Perhaps frequencies of haplogroups were different among groups which cremated their dead.

  14. #30
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    Razyn, how many Sephardic Jews ended up in Poland-Lithuania, in your estimation?

    I know that some came to Poland but mostly to South-Eastern Poland, not really to my region and not to Lithuania.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I think some people who had to leave Iberia 500 years ago were L617, by that time -- and they didn't all go to Brazil. But the east-to-west migration and branching within DF27 that's more apparent happened more like 2500 BC, not between 300 and 1500 AD.
    I was told that L617 family from Mexico (N45914) has a surname which is probably of Basque or Castilian origin, rather than Sephardic. But indeed there is also a theory that their surname is Sephardic. Maybe these are several families of different origins with the same surname?

    It is a patronymic surname, so it can have many unrelated origins, I guess.

    Why is this Mexican guy not on YFull, by the way? Could you maybe contact him and ask him to upload his sample to YFull?

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if Webb's guess (Germanic migrations) is closer to what actually scrambled these eggs. But IIRC he has a thing for Visigoths; so I also wouldn't be surprised if this migration theory is just another instance of that interest.
    If Webb has a thing for Visigoths then he will probably like this recent theory about the English ethnogenesis:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...nglish.637524/

    I admit that it is a fringe theory but the user who posted it in the link above (Pangur Ban) has PhD in history.

    But even if L617 was connected with Germanic Migrations, it could as well be related to the Vandals, not Goths.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-03-2018 at 01:03 AM.

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