Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 65

Thread: Z2552 (DF81, L617, YP4295 and Z15001)

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,114
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15743
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Z2552 (DF81, L617, YP4295 and Z15001)

    Within the still quite large group that is DF27+ but Z195- [aka ZZ12+], there is a somewhat elusive subgroup marked by Z2552+. This mutation is apparently unread by the BigY; and given that DF27 itself is also unread by most tests, its bearers start with at least two strikes against them. If one takes into account the more problematic but very useful ZZ series of SNPs, Z2552 is also below ZZ12 and ZZ19; that might mean the metaphorical count is holding at two strikes, with two subsequent foul balls.

    Below Z2552, however, there are known subclades whose evidence may be seen in BigY results. This forum has previously had threads or posts about two of them, L617 and DF81. The latter is the more active thread, and a couple of days ago I added a note there about a newly discovered and named SNP, YP4295. I found that in the shared novel variants of five BigY testers, three of whom were already DF27 project members (and a fourth has since joined). I checked with Vladimir Tagankin at YFull, who confirmed that it was present in only one sample in their database -- that one being a Colombian in the 1000 Genomes project (HG01121) who was already present on the YFull tree, as well as on Alex Williamson's big tree, as Z2552*.

    I don't know that there is any need to merge the old threads, just because those brother SNPs share a parent (Z2552). Anyway, for reference, here is the 2013 L617 thread (i.e., post): http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...F27-gt-L617%29

    And here is the 2013 DF81 thread, a little more active: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...F27-gt-DF81%29

    In post #14 of the latter thread, Chris Corner (who has a very active Rox2 site, but that lies outside Z2552) mentioned another SNP, Z15001. (I have a separate note that that mutation is at 23890531, T to A. I think I got that from the handy Mutations Index on Alex Williamson's Big Tree.) I don't believe we have a project member in whom it has been identified -- unless that happened at YSEQ or BritainsDNA, and is below my radar. As far as I am now aware, Z15001 might mark a fourth distinct subclade of Z2552, unless somebody finds that mutation in an L617, DF81 or YP4295 sample.

    I did some minimal searching for Z2552. An "advanced" SNP test for it is on the FTDNA menu, so I assume it does yield to Sanger sequencing. But according to the reports available to me as an admin of the DF27 project, no member has either a pending or a completed order for the test. It appears to be an old, robust clade, with a lot of variance in each of its known subclades. Only about a hundred examples of DF27+, Z195- have had BigY tests, and the new YP4295 SNP was found in five of them. Counting those in the previously identified (and better-known) L617 and DF81 groups, over a dozen are Z2552+. People who remain DF27** and think they have tried everything (one SNP at a time) might want to try Z2552.

  2. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     EastAnglian (07-21-2015),  gogogenes (07-20-2015),  ISC80 (12-04-2015),  palamede (07-20-2015),  Tomenable (05-20-2021),  Webb (07-19-2015)

  3. #2
    Junior Member
    Posts
    16
    Sex
    Location
    New Zealand
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b P312+DF27+L617+
    mtDNA (M)
    J2

    razyn,

    Thanks for starting this thread on Z2552. As you suggest, there may be more to Z2552 than we realize, the problem being it is not included in most standard tests like BigY, and it is so old that you can't predict it from Haplotype. I have been encouraging others to test Z2552, but it is so difficult to predict from haplotype, we need a few pioneers to test Z2552 to get a feel for just how wide spread it is. As you have shown, new subclades are coming to light below Z2552, and there may be many more as yet undiscovered. I have plans to test more Iberians for L617, but will start by testing them for Z2552, as catches a much wider section of DF27.

    Someone did age estimates of DF27 subclades a while ago, and as I recall, L617 came up with the oldest age estimate. Given that Z2552 is older than L617, Z2552 must be amongst the oldest known SNPs below DF27. You indicated that Z2552 was below ZZ12+, but I believed L617 was ZZ12-. I have been searching my records to try and find some past discussion on this, but have not found it just yet. I will keep looking!

    I am DF27+>Z2552+>L617+>FGC14951+. I have tested BigY and YElite, so should have ZZ12 results somewhere. Also I know of 4 L617s who have tested YElite, and about a dozen FGC14951s who have tested BigY, so we are starting to see some structure below K617. I have some information at http://www.kin.marshdna.com/DNAresultsL617.htm .

    Some have assumed DF27 may have first occurred in Iberia. With Z2552 it appears a near certainty that it occurred in Iberia from what I have seen so far. It is almost a certainty that L617 first occurred in Iberia also, and there are a half dozen SNPs grouped with L617 defining that subclade. These SNPs grouped with L617 are...
    8466862 G>A (L617+)
    15407374 C>T (FGC14936+)
    15092671 G>A (unnamed)
    7506827 C>T (FGC14934+)
    9321347 T>C (FGC14935+)
    23332817 T>C (unnamed)
    23387829 T>A (FGC14937+)

    If some of these are above L617 but below Z2552, they may show up in some of the other Z2552 subclades. I think that the ones tested in BigY don't show up in DF81, but a couple are not tested in BigY, only in YElite. Although I have supported BigY strongly to date to see the General SNP landscape, now that we can see the broad picture, I am tending to recommend YElite as a preference for those that can afford it. So any fence sitters thinking of a more comprehensive Y test, give serious consideration to YElite.

    FGC14951 has been so far confirmed in 4 distinct family groups in England, perhaps separated near 3,000 years ago, but not yet found elsewhere, so the possibility is FGC14951 denotes a single ancestor who founded a branch of L617 in the British Isles perhaps near 3,000 years ago.

    There are two lines of L617 known in Iberia.

    There is a believed L617 in NETHERLANDS, which may trace back to France, or even Brittany earlier, so possibly even Briton earlier still. I am currently trying to get him tested for FGC14951.

    This thread on Z2552 is timely. It is something which needs to be tested more.

    John Marsh

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to John Marsh For This Useful Post:

     EastAnglian (07-21-2015),  ISC80 (09-22-2015),  palamede (07-20-2015),  Tomenable (05-20-2021)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,114
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15743
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    I added a couple of BigY-tested DF81 kits to group Gb today, 39078 and 343710. Also got the .vcf files of both, so perhaps Alex can update the Big Tree in a column that has only had 1000 Genomes samples (lower resolution than BigY). Stay tuned*.

    In the meantime, the variance keeps getting higher every time a new person joins -- none of these Z2552 guys really look much alike, except for two with the same surname. Also it's beginning to appear (at least, to me) as if each of the three known clades has a branch that is primarily Iberian (in the case of DF81, Basque), and a branch that is not. There will be differences of opinion about what that might mean, held by those who do or don't subscribe to the "Celtic from the West" theory. Not to mention those who do or don't believe that more SNPs = older subclade.


    *In case your radio doesn't have a button set to tune one of the channels that are carrying this program, try these two. Both sites are very nimble, and coincidentally have been updated today. That process takes a little longer at YFull (where the whole tree is updated at once), but still occurs quite frequently:

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...641&star=false
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2552/
    Last edited by razyn; 07-23-2015 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Adding urls to phylogenetic trees revised less than 24 hours after my post.

  6. #4
    Junior Member
    Posts
    16
    Sex
    Location
    New Zealand
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b P312+DF27+L617+
    mtDNA (M)
    J2

    The new R1b backbone test has been turning up more L617s. In the last few days a couple more from England, and one tracing to Poland. Currently there are the following known branches each being possibly as much as 3,000 years old....

    1) Iberia (2 surnames, possibly related 1,500 years ago)
    2) England (5 distict branches related about 3,000 years ago, quite a few different surnames in each branch)
    3) France (1 surname, in France about 1,000 years ago, currently living Netherlands)
    4) Poland (1 surname, currently living USA)

    Based on the early indications, we should find many more L617s as results start coming in for the new backbone test.

    John.

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to John Marsh For This Useful Post:

     Earl Davis (08-28-2015),  Gray Fox (09-21-2015),  ISC80 (09-22-2015),  palamede (09-22-2015)

  8. #5
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,114
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15743
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    John Marsh is currently unable to post here, until he recovers his password (it may just be "remembered" on a different computer). In the meantime he has authorized me to cross-post this message that he posted Sept. 18th to a RootsWeb list. There have been a couple of responses, and I'll paste in a link to the archived opening of this conversation in case anyone wants to check it. I won't wrap quotation marks around it, in case someone wants to quote it in a reply -- but the rest of this, apart from a locator url at the end, is from John:
    _____________________

    There has been recent progress on the L617 tribe since L617 was added to the FTDNA R1b backbone test.

    WEB SITE: I have over 40 DNA tested L617s shown at http://www.kin.marshdna.com/DNAresultsL617.htm , and I know of perhaps 60 further DNA tested L617s not on that database yet. I also am aware of many surnames who look from STR haplotypes to possibly be L617. I have been hoping for a L617 project to be approved by FTDNA to get access to project administrator research tools, but approval has not yet been granted. (Sitting here holding my breath!)

    BIGY: There is considerable effort being put into testing L617s on BigY, and YElite, and much information has been assembled which is only privately available to L617s who are in contact with me direct at [email protected] . The L617s are friendly group, with a number of keen researchers frequently in email contact sharing information and ideas to help each other with L617 exploration. We look forward to contact with new found L617s. I am sure our common L617 ancestor 3,500 years ago would be pleased to know his descendants were still a cohesive family/ tribal group in spite of our wide geographic dispersal.

    IBERIA: L617 seems to have likely occurred in Iberia about 3,500 years ago. L617 is found today in Iberia, but has not been much tested there yet.

    ENGLAND: Recent findings are a number of L617s amongst DF27s from Cornwall in particular, and surrounding Counties. Early signs are that perhaps as many as 50% of DF27s in Cornwall may be L617. It is also found in Eastern England around Staffordshire, and Cheshire, eg the large Plant family from about 900+ years ago. It looks like there was quite early L617s in the Northumberland area 900+ years ago, eg large de Ogle and De Tindall families, both of which are speculated to have had maternal line links at least to early Anglo-Saxon earls of Northumbria. L617 is also found in Cambridgeshire, but early origin of this line is still unknown. It is thought that some English L617s may stem from bronze or Iron Age Celtic migrations, but some may have arrived separately in later migrant groups, eg Anglo-Saxons, Normans etc.

    POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617.

    NETHERLANDS, FLANDERS, BELGIUM: Some found in this area.

    SEPHARDIC JEWS: Sephardic Jewish DF27s might include L617s. There is a suggestion it is found in Sephardic Jews from Iberia which spread to the Americas and Poland in the past 500 years.

    R1b BACKBONE TEST: The new FTDNA R1b backbone test is proving very useful at linking R1bs to their subclades. I recommend that R1bs who are curious about their deeper tribal roots consider the new Backbone test. Or better still, BigY.

    COMMENTS ON EXTENT OF L617 TESTING: There has been some testing of L617 in the British Isles, and R1b projects, but many very large geographic projects for different parts of the world have very few tested for L617, so there will be some surprises no doubt when L617 is more widely tested.

    WISH LIST: I wish that in their customer database matching FTDNA had an "additional" feature where matches could be searched for moderately recent SNPs like 3,500 year old L617. Perhaps customers could nominate for approval SNPs which have a benefit in being searchable. On STR matching at lower marker numbers at least, matches in my case are mostly unrelated in the past 3,500 years. But if I could search specifically for L617 matches, I would know all were related to me in the past 3,500 years. I have been individually looking through surname and geographic projects for L617, time consuming! I am periodically turning up new L617s, but there has to be a better way of finding needles in haystacks.
    _____________________

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-09/1442547211

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     EastAnglian (09-22-2015),  Gray Fox (09-21-2015),  ISC80 (09-22-2015),  palamede (09-22-2015)

  10. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    "POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617."
    He has 3 cases of L617+ from Poland-Lithuania. His claim that all three are of Sephardic Jewish origin is very weak; and, I suspect, is based partly on his personal belief that L617 began in Iberia. Big Y tests all around would likely settle the matter, but who has the money for that?

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     Earl Davis (09-21-2015),  Tomenable (08-31-2016)

  12. #7
    Junior Member
    Posts
    16
    Sex
    Location
    New Zealand
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b P312+DF27+L617+
    mtDNA (M)
    J2

    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    He has 3 cases of L617+ from Poland-Lithuania. His claim that all three are of Sephardic Jewish origin is very weak; and, I suspect, is based partly on his personal belief that L617 began in Iberia. Big Y tests all around would likely settle the matter, but who has the money for that?

    Laurence,

    I have just managed at last to log into Anthrogenica after days of trying, so at last can post directly myself. I appreciate your input into this discussion, as you are the expert on Poland.

    Firstly, I have had 4 L617s tested on YElite, and about 15 tested on BigY. We are starting to get some indications on the early SNPs and branching of the L617 subclade. We are not experts yet, but it is hard not to notice repeated signs of links to Iberia. I agree it is possible to construct alternative scenarios to L617 first occurring in Iberia, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore that many independent fragments of information all point to Iberia.

    My gut feeling is that Iberia is the most likely origin of L617, and half a dozen other SNPs found in an undivided grouping with L617. The upstream SNP Z2552 shared with DF81 and another subclade is even more strongly indicated to be Iberian. DF81 is strongly linked today to Iberia, and specifically the same area of Iberia which the only L617 with a known geographic location within Iberia is believed to have came from. DF27 the next upstream SNP is widely speculated by persons other than me to have had an Iberian origin, or at very least Iberian early base and spreading point. DF27 was when discovered often described as the Iberian SNP.

    I have no reason for wanting L617 to be Iberian, or for wanting some L617 to be Jewish. Only 3 to 5 out of about a 100 Y-DNA tested L617s have hints of Jewish origins. I am just trying to make inferences from the fragments of information as they are revealed. I hope that by putting this hypothesis out for discussion, others might be able to either show me the folly of my speculation, or provide some other clues to investigate.

    I have so far received responses off list from 2 individuals with some interesting observations. In response to these contacts I looked up more history of European Jews, and indeed found several historical events consistent with a Sephardic Jewish dispersal of L617 to Poland being possible in some cases. But the majority of L617 does not seem to be Sephardic Jewish. It is possible that some or most of the English lines of L617 had migrated from Iberia to England before Jews even existed.

    Of the 3 L617s possibly from Poland/ Lithuania, 2 are definitely from that area in recent times. Of these, one has a surname found in Polish Jews, and the other has a surname the same as a Spanish Town name. The third with a possible Polish link is from Netherlands in the late 1600s, but speculated by those researching that family to possibly have been a Jewish exile from Poland, where that surname is mainly found. None of these families has indicated to me that they are currently Jewish, or were positively known to be Jewish in the distant past. So you suggestion my evidence is very weak might be a valid observation.

    But I have been looking at a wider context to try and make inferences. I know of 2 lines of L617 with recent confirmed origins in Iberia. These 2 lines seem from STRs and SNPs to possibly be related about 1500 years ago. One of those lines went to America some time after 1500, and according to family traditions were thought to have been Sephardic Jews.

    So whether the Polish L617s had Sephardic Jewish origins or not, we do have indications from family traditions of other L617s that some L617s in Iberia around 500 years ago were Sephardic Jews. I did some research on Jewish history, and found that there was a strong Jewish population in Iberia 500 years ago, and when Persecution of Jews in Spain in 1492, and Portugal in 1497 made life difficult for them then, it seems that Poland, which historically was Pagan rather than Christian, became attractive as a tolerant destination for Jewish exiles.

    Compared to other L617s, the purported 3 Polish L617s seem genetically closer (based on STRs) than the large number of L617s found in England. The Polish L617s may have had common ancestor about 2000 years ago, and the 2 with more definite evidence of coming from Poland/ Lithuania appear more closely related.

    I am open to suggestions. You I think know at least one of the Polish L617s. Do you have any suggestions yourself on where L617 may have originated, or how and when it got to Poland? Do you think there is any evidence L617 originated in Poland rather than Iberia?

    You suggest that BigY testing might answer some of the origin questions. I have already tested 15 L617s on BigY. I would be very keen to test on BigY one of the two L617s with confirmed recent links to Poland/ Lithuania. I can raise some money to contribute towards BigY testing one of these, if they were also able to contribute part of the testing cost. I am not sure BIGY would conclusively prove at this stage either an Iberian or Jewish link 500 years ago, but the more data the better, if we got lucky it just might lead to a break through. As an alternative to BigY, there are relatively new full genome 2 and 4 times coverage tests at FGC which include the Y chromosome. I am looking at starting to use these as a budget test which might suffice in place of BigY in some cases. I say lets work towards testing one of the Polish L617s on BigY, and see if that helps.

    John.

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to John Marsh For This Useful Post:

     EastAnglian (09-22-2015),  ISC80 (09-23-2015),  lgmayka (09-22-2015),  palamede (09-22-2015)

  14. #8
    Junior Member
    Posts
    16
    Sex
    Location
    New Zealand
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b P312+DF27+L617+
    mtDNA (M)
    J2

    NEW R-L617 PROJECT AT FTDNA: John Marsh Project Administrator- [email protected]
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

    I have recently started a R-L617 project at FTDNA. I am currently spreading the word amongst L617s to get them to join the project. As a starting point we have a selection of the main L617 subclade branches joined to the project. I hope all L617s will join the project, as having the data in one place helps us analyse the subclade, ie working out branch modals, branch SNPs etc.

    I did a quick count, and I am aware of 80 Y-DNA STR tested persons who have also tested L617+, or have a close STR matching Y-DNA relative who has tested L617+. Many of the L617s stem from large 3 families descended from Plant, Tindall and Ogle living about 800 years ago in England. So although L617 is perceived as being a small subclade, there are quite a few members living today.

    Since the project started a few days ago, I have been comparing haplotypes, novel variants and SNPs of the first few L617s to join the project. My impression is that L617 is more complex that I thought. Some subgroups which I presumed to be more closely related, seem to in fact have very early common ancestors, perhaps 3,000 or more years ago. Prior to about 3,000 years ago, the SNP FGC14951 defines a branch point, but below that there currently seems quite a few different lines with no common ancestor in the past 3,000 years. Then about 1000 years ago, the various separate lines start branching rapidly again.

    There are a few hints about origin locations and migration events, but let's see what the DNA has to say. Some of my initial impressions from STRs have been disproved by SNPs.

    I would welcome any inquiries at [email protected].

    John Marsh.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to John Marsh For This Useful Post:

     ISC80 (10-06-2015),  lgmayka (10-05-2015),  razyn (10-05-2015),  Rick (10-05-2015)

  16. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,114
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15743
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by John Marsh View Post
    I have recently started a R-L617 project at FTDNA.
    In case you don't check it daily or something, one of your guys got his BigY today, 248229. His best match is 126811 (also already a member), and they seem uniquely to share what may be a new subclade-defining SNP, 22076669, C to T.

  17. #10
    Junior Member
    Posts
    16
    Sex
    Location
    New Zealand
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b P312+DF27+L617+
    mtDNA (M)
    J2

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    In case you don't check it daily or something, one of your guys got his BigY today, 248229. His best match is 126811 (also already a member), and they seem uniquely to share what may be a new subclade-defining SNP, 22076669, C to T.
    Razyn,

    Thanks for the notification.

    This is rather an interesting sub branch of L617, FGC14951. It links a Cambridgeshire family with a Cornish family..... Near 3,000 years back in time. We have been finding a lot of L617 tracing to Cornwall lately. For several years we have been speculating L617 may have entered England about 3,000 years ago looking for tin in the Bronze Age. The finding of lots of L617 in Cornwall is therefore interesting. Not conclusive proof of tin seekers, but at least consistent with the tin theory.

    We still await several more results for L617s, including 2 BigYs, and a FGC14951 test. So far all English L617s conclusively tested for FGC14951 are positive, and all L617s tracing to Iberia, Lithuania/ Poland are negative. We have one ambiguous FGC14951 result from England which we are currently testing as an individual marker test.

    We have one FGC14951+ from Netherlands, but that line was speculated to have originally been from Flanders, and perhaps 900 years ago from Brittany. Brittany is just across the ditch from Cornwall, with historical population exchanges, so it is at least a chance the Netherlands FGC14951+ traces back to England. The early

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. L617 (DF27>L617)
    By John Marsh in forum R1b-DF27
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-05-2021, 02:29 PM
  2. DF81 (DF27>DF81)
    By TigerMW in forum R1b-DF27
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 04-13-2020, 08:09 PM
  3. Replies: 56
    Last Post: 12-20-2015, 05:54 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •