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Thread: Z2552 (DF81, L617, YP4295 and Z15001)

  1. #11
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    Hi all, I'm the L-617 that John is referring to from Lithuania. I believe L-617 is less than 1% in Lithuania currently. With R1b not common in Eastern Europe I'm curious how 'we' ended up there. We are not Jewish that I know of. Family settled along the Nemunas River near Kaunas - very old settlement. Family has been there a very long time. In terms of very recent migration, my current theory is some distant relation to the Romanovs who were/are R-M269. My family has a noble line. Romanovs had a Lithuanian branch of the family (Zubov). I have pretty close geni tree matches to both of them through marriages. Don't know if they are blood relation but I think it's likely there is a common ancestor. I am missing a lot of my ancestry in geni. R-M269 migration in their case is from ancient Germany. The Tolstoys are related to the Romanovs. Tolstoy family was founded by a German Knight. They are a close geni tree match to me as well. Probably something to it but theory at this point.
    Last edited by Purickis_Lithuania; 09-20-2018 at 04:20 AM.

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  3. #12
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    My father's sample is added on YFull Tree as L617* (quite surprising because I expected it under M225):

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2552/

    The analysis is finished. We are just waiting for TMRCA ("Age estimation in progress. This may take some time").

    Some Czech guy also joined recently, so now there are at least two Z2552 samples from Slavic countries:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4295*/

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617.
    My father scored "100% East Euro" on Family Finder, although all other tests give him more "Central Euro" results - but that is not surprising considering he comes from the borderland of Wielkopolska and Lower Silesia. Other people in the region have similar results.

    So far my dad has not scored any Jewish on commercial tests. Only on GEDmatch 2% "Near_Eastern" in Eurogenes K36, but I actually doubt that it is informative (if you want I can test relatives to try to check if this admix is from grandfather's or grandmother's side).

    My dad's Eurogenes K36 (from FTDNA raw data):

    Basque 0.29
    Central_African 0.05
    Central_Euro 10.15
    East_Balkan 8.33
    East_Central_Euro 19.23
    Eastern_Euro 13.7
    Fennoscandian 11.05
    French 5.28
    Iberian 6.23
    Italian 3.34
    Near_Eastern 1.93
    North_Atlantic 9.1
    North_Sea 10.51
    Volga-Ural 0.36
    West_Caucasian 0.24
    West_Med 0.17

    Generations tend to be long in our family. I was born in the 90s, my father was born in the 50s, and his father (my grandfather) was born in 1904. But since I was not really conducting any proper genealogical research so far (I'm planning to do it), I have managed to trace my direct paternal line only back to the early 1800s, in the same region (Wielkopolska). Recently during a family meeting I talked to my uncle (my father's brother) and he claims that our direct paternal lineage has roots in Wielkopolska region going back at least 400-500 years ago. He also mentioned two other families or "clans" which have been - supposedly - closely associated with our family, and frequently intermarried in the past.

    Wielkopolska - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland

    My dad is the youngest of 5 brothers including 2 half-brothers (father in common with one, mother with the other one).

    At this point my opinion is that Z2552 could actually originate somewhere around Poland and Czech Republic?

    Or perhaps we are the "remnants" of Iron Age Celtic groups which lived here?

    =====

    When it comes to STR matches - so far 100% of my and my father's STR matches are British (mainly Scottish).

    However, our STR matches did not buy R1b SNP Packs. They are only listed as R1b-M269, nothing downstream.

    It would be nice if they buy SNP Packs just to check if they are Z2552 or not.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-02-2018 at 10:10 PM.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purickis_Lithuania View Post
    We are not Jewish that I know of.
    Same in my case, not aware of anything Jewish.

    We have the same haplogroup. According to YFull, my father is L617* (see the POL [PL-WP] sample).

    We have a very typically Polish Slavic "-ski" surname.

    As far as I know, there is also one "-ski" guy (but with a different surname) from Lithuania with L617:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_...huania#History

    Are you in contact with this other Lithuanian?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-02-2018 at 11:37 PM.

  6. #15
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    Tomenable, please see my response to Michal here:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Basques/page12

    Thread #112. If the age estimation is correct, L617 being formed around 247AD, and the small size of this block, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is indicative of Germanic Migrations.

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  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Tomenable, please see my response to Michal here:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Basques/page12

    Thread #112. If the age estimation is correct, L617 being formed around 247AD, and the small size of this block, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is indicative of Germanic Migrations.
    This map is most likely a bit outdated by now because I made it back in 2016.

    It shows the distribution of L617 based on the samples that we had back then:



    I noticed a correlation with ethnonym Lugians (tribes known as "Lugians" were recorded in Poland, Britain and Iberia):



    Lugians in Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii

    Lugians in Britain: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lemy/2/2*.html

    Lugians in Iberia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astures#Origins

    We also have toponyms:

    Lugidunon / Lugidunum (= somewhere in ancient Poland)
    Luguvalium (= Carlisle in Cumbria, in northern England)
    Lugudunum / Lugdunum (= Lyon, in Rhône-Alpes, France)
    Lugdunum Batavorum (= Leiden, in Zuid-Holland, the Netherlands)
    Lugdunum Convenarum (= Saint-Bertrand-de-Comminges)

  9. #17
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    According to this book, "Vistula Amne Discreta. Greek and Latin sources to the oldest history of Poland":



    ^^^
    Soon after the name "Lugians" disappeared from Roman sources, the name "Vandals" appeared in the same area.

    Both Lugians and Vandals were federations of many tribes (there were Lugian tribes and Vandalic tribes). My opinion is that the name changed because the leadership changed (Vandals replaced Lugians as the dominant ethnic group within that federation).

    The tribal federation in question most likely encompassed the same area as the archeological Przeworsk culture.

    =====

    These guys made a good job with researching Lugians (this is just a mod to a game, but created by historians):

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...w-The-Lugiones
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-02-2018 at 10:48 PM.

  10. #18
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    Discussion (in Polish) about Iron Age Poland including Lugians, Vandals, Przeworsk culture, etc. (with some maps):

    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=170690

    Note that locations of many tribes are speculative:



    About Celtic presence in the territory of Poland:

    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/bastarnae-poland/

    "Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Poland (according to data published before November 2014)":



    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/ta...ements-poland/



    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/20...lts-in-poland/



    DNA testing of Iron Age samples is in progress:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....olis-in-Poland

    ^^^ Thread about 2000 year old cemeteries.

  11. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I wouldn’t be surprised if it is indicative of Germanic Migrations.
    It could expand in Germanic migrations, but most likely was originally Celtic and later some carriers of L617 could be Germanized.

    P312 is generally not Germanic (U106 is Germanic) and the highest concentration of L617 within Britain is in Cornwall, AFAIK.

    As of December 2016, there were at least seven families from Cornwall with L617 - more than in any other region of Britain.

    =====

    As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

    So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-02-2018 at 11:00 PM.

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  13. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purickis_Lithuania View Post
    I believe L-617 is less than 1% in Lithuania currently.
    It is less than 1% in every single country. We need to make more effort to increase our numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purickis_Lithuania View Post
    With R1b not common in Eastern Europe I'm curious how 'we' ended up there.
    R1b is ca. 1/5 of Poles according to Myres 2010, the 2nd most common haplogroup in Poland after R1a (which is ~50%):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....est-Slavic-R1b

    I believe that the frequency of R1b in Poland before the Migration Period had to be higher, and R1a was likely much lower.

    Before the Migration Period = before year 400 AD.

    If we go back even further - to the Early Bronze Age - then Western Europe had 0% of R1b. Check for example Britain:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-02-2018 at 11:17 PM.

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