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Thread: North-Norwegians, North-Swedes and Finns

  1. #11
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    Looking at "recent" history, much of Finnmark = "the borderland of the Finns" (where "Finn" was a usual name for Saami people), was sometimes taxed both by Norway, Sweden and Russia. A majority of inland toponyms have Saami origins, but there are good reasons to believe that the Norwegian name of at least one coastal feature up there predates the sea level rise of the past 1000 years (a "sund", narrow bit of sea, which is now dry land).

    The description that Ottar gave to the English king indicates Norwegian trading in the north, but not much settlement. It is likely that "southerners" did not make a strong genetic imprint on the small inlalnd population up north at the time of the vikings, but searoutes and trading contacts definitively existed.

    Snorre writing in the 1200ds, relates stories of intermittent trade with northern Russia (Bjarmeland) a few hundred years before. There were treaties with the Swedish kings defining the common border as the hills and mountains "Kjölen all the way up to Finnmark". Gjesvaer (on the island of the North cape) is mentioned as the first settlement after Bjarmeland, making it likely that the coast between had nomadic use rather than agriculture or export fisheries.

    A slightly later manuscript than that of Snorre Sturlason was written in 1265 by Sturla Thordarsson . This mentions relations with Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany the Orkneys, Scotland, the Hebrides, Man,Ireland, England, Germany, Spain and the church in Rome. Not much about the northern parts. One page, however relates that Aleksander, the king of Holmgard (Novgorod) sent representatives to Norway to complain about the "East Karelians" who were due to pay tax to Holmgard but constantly broke the law. Aleksander wanted the Norwegian governor of Finnmark to see to law and order. The Norwegian delegation that went back to Holmgard concluded peace "between the tax lands", "Karelians and Finns should not make war, but the peace did not hold for long".

    Tenouos Norwegian power would seem to indicate tenuous Norwegian settlement at least east of the North cape, and probably quite some way southwards in the direction of Lofoten where Ottar lived. Both in Sweden and in Norway, territories up north is still named Nordland=the land in the north -possibly originally indicating that it used to be the northernmost part of the kingdoms, while the northernmost bits of Norway is Finnmark and the north of Sweden and Finnland are still called Lappland - the lands of the Saami..

    Later history is very well documented. The German Hansa established more intensive trading links, the "Kontor" in Bergen was a major transit post for fish from the north and imports going northwards. Trading posts that had been small grew to become small villages. The clergy and representatives of the crown came from down south. After Sweden broke out of the brief Scandinavian three crown union , most governance functions were centered in Copenhagen, hence Danish influence came to dominate a long time after the reformation. Many clergy and officials had degrees from universities in German states and the low countries (for instance Rostock and Leyden) occasionally brought back wives and intermarried with local property owners. So, just like in the centuries before, genes were brought from a large circumference .

    The Danish king decided to fortify the easternmost outposts and sent millitary contingents up to Finnmark. Trading posts were givern royal "octroy" monopoly on all local trade, imports and exports. In one case settlers from Österdalen in the south were given land up north at Målselv in order to solidify the Norwegian presence. Extremely profitable -but risky- seasonal fisheries attracted boats from far away .

    All in all, the demographic changes up north in the last few hundred years must have resulted in substantial genetic mixing, not just among the ruling elites but including the descendants of the scattered settlers and nomads that used to live there.

    p.

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  3. #12
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    Looking at "recent" history, much of Finnmark = "the borderland of the Finns" (where "Finn" was a usual name for Saami people), was sometimes taxed both by Norway, Sweden and Russia. A majority of inland toponyms have Saami origins, but there are good reasons to believe that the Norwegian name of at least one coastal feature up there predates the sea level rise of the past 1000 years (a "sund", narrow bit of sea, which is now dry land).

    The description that Ottar gave to the English king indicates Norwegian trading in the north, but not much settlement. It is likely that "southerners" did not make a strong genetic imprint on the small inlalnd population up north at the time of the vikings, but searoutes and trading contacts definitively existed.

    Snorre writing in the 1200ds, relates stories of intermittent trade with northern Russia (Bjarmeland) a few hundred years before. There were treaties with the Swedish kings defining the common border as the hills and mountains "Kjölen all the way up to Finnmark". Gjesvaer (on the island of the North cape) is mentioned as the first settlement after Bjarmeland, making it likely that the coast between had nomadic use rather than agriculture or export fisheries.

    A slightly later manuscript than that of Snorre Sturlason was written in 1265 by Sturla Thordarsson . This mentions relations with Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany the Orkneys, Scotland, the Hebrides, Man,Ireland, England, Germany, Spain and the church in Rome. Not much about the northern parts. One page, however relates that Aleksander, the king of Holmgard (Novgorod) sent representatives to Norway to complain about the "East Karelians" who were due to pay tax to Holmgard but constantly broke the law. Aleksander wanted the Norwegian governor of Finnmark to see to law and order. The Norwegian delegation that went back to Holmgard concluded peace "between the tax lands", "Karelians and Finns should not make war, but the peace did not hold for long".

    Tenouos Norwegian power would seem to indicate tenuous Norwegian settlement at least east of the North cape, and probably quite some way southwards in the direction of Lofoten where Ottar lived. Both in Sweden and in Norway, territories up north is still named Nordland=the land in the north -possibly originally indicating that it used to be the northernmost part of the kingdoms, while the northernmost bits of Norway is Finnmark and the north of Sweden and Finnland are still called Lappland - the lands of the Saami..

    Later history is very well documented. The German Hansa established more intensive trading links, the "Kontor" in Bergen was a major transit post for fish from the north and imports going northwards. Trading posts that had been small grew to become small villages. The clergy and representatives of the crown came from down south. After Sweden broke out of the brief Scandinavian three crown union , most governance functions were centered in Copenhagen, hence Danish influence came to dominate a long time after the reformation. Many clergy and officials had degrees from universities in German states and the low countries (for instance Rostock and Leyden) occasionally brought back wives and intermarried with local property owners. So, just like in the centuries before, genes were brought from a large circumference .

    The Danish king decided to fortify the easternmost outposts and sent millitary contingents up to Finnmark. Trading posts were givern royal "octroy" monopoly on all local trade, imports and exports. In one case settlers from Österdalen in the south were given land up north at Målselv in order to solidify the Norwegian presence. Extremely profitable -but risky- seasonal fisheries attracted boats from far away .

    All in all, the demographic changes up north in the last few hundred years must have resulted in substantial genetic mixing, not just among the ruling elites but including the descendants of the scattered settlers and nomads that used to live there.

    p.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ph. For This Useful Post:

     dodona (09-04-2018),  ffoucart (09-04-2018)

  5. #13
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    Very simple, they are not Germanic Swedes but Uralic Finns, the examples you gave all have Finnish names. Charlotte Kalla even states that she is a "Tornedalian" which just translates to Finnish.

    Search for "Tornedalians" and you will see Charlotte Kalla in a list on the Wikipedia page.

    Even if people up North are indeed mixed with Finns and Saamis, those people there are simply pure Finnish immigrants, not related to Swedes or Norwegians.

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