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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #1891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ After adding PL_N17 from Gustorzyn, I can draw a similar plausible north-western boundary of Balto-Slavic drift:

    (the previous map did not contain N17 because this sample is older than 1000 BCE)



    Distance to: POL_EBA:N17
    0.05677136 Russian_Tver
    0.05731770 Russian_Kursk
    0.05734487 Finnish_Southeast
    0.05759653 Ingrian
    0.05799950 Swedish
    Why is Gdansk and Kaliningrad excluded from BS drift? Are we sure that given Kivutkalns in Riga is hardcore Baltic_BA (it is the Baltic BA) that nearby West Baltic lands were not having BS drift?

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  3. #1892
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    Vladimir, judging by the Arza's model, this sample has a relatively large amount of Balto-Slavic drift.

    Target: POL_EBA:I6579
    Distance: 1.5155% / 0.01515521
    50.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
    24.4 Baltic_EST_BA
    14.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
    10.2 HUN_Baden_LCA
    0.6 Baltic_LVA_MN

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  5. #1893
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    Is there a way in G25 to distinguish real Balto-Slavic drift from WHG/EHG-rich ancestry with coincidental similarity?
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  7. #1894
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    How would coincidental similarity work? Like similar proportions of WHG or what?

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  9. #1895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Is there a way in G25 to distinguish real Balto-Slavic drift from WHG/EHG-rich ancestry with coincidental similarity?
    I made synthetic hypothetical European HG coordinates a while back:

    Baltic_HG,0.149868802,0.136380306,0.209730848,0.19 0840117,0.156106048,0.072437149,0.038002007,0.0636 88237,0.046382364,-0.072430537,-0.000902502,-0.05876715,0.106677275,0.144928109,-0.071019374,-0.005004616,0.021966607,0.003931878,-0.009757506,0.005758381,0.003759276,-0.024595198,0.007626296,-0.077723948,0.014953698

    Atlantic_HG,0.15783529,0.145428162,0.227399923,0.1 79637334,0.192737659,0.066128236,-0.006463956,0.062169167,0.151839868,0.11927273,-0.034165923,0.016107093,-0.03443422,0.000764432,0.130067707,-0.008322424,-0.104599534,-0.002026741,-0.05647959,0.01533621,0.094171013,-0.009430468,-0.034509132,-0.120477847,0.023748821

    Obviously such HG populations with Balto-Slavic/West European drift never existed, but I created it to differentiate HG rich European groups (Northwest Europeans v. Northeast Europeans). For example below is how English score vs. Polish

    Target: English
    Distance: 2.4724% / 0.02472415
    50.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    35.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    12.2 Atlantic_HG
    1.8 Baltic_HG

    Target: Polish
    Distance: 1.0585% / 0.01058520
    46.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    19.8 Baltic_HG
    1.8 Atlantic_HG
    0.4 East_Asian
    "4.6% Yamnaya_RUS_Samara + 95.4% Greek_Peloponnese (N=24)" "0.0172"

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  11. #1896
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Why is Gdansk and Kaliningrad excluded from BS drift? Are we sure that given Kivutkalns in Riga is hardcore Baltic_BA (it is the Baltic BA) that nearby West Baltic lands were not having BS drift?
    Isn’t WEZ56 high in balto-slavic admix? IIRC the sample is from present day Mecklenburg (Tollense). Sample is also Z283+ I think…

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  13. #1897
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Iwiny (site 13, woj. dolnośląskie, Lower Silesia/Dolny Śląsk, Poland)
    Contact person: Agata Hałuszko
    The site Iwiny 13 is located about 8 km south of Wrocław. A rescue excavation was
    undertaken during construction works of an eastern road ring for Wrocław by
    archaeologists of the archaeological company (In Situ Roland Marek, Mateusz Krupski,
    Łukasz Lisiecki). Several traces of settlement from various periods and 3 graves were
    uncovered.
    Feature 83 was a partly destroyed burial of a female adult 40-50 years old at death. She
    was lying on her right side, in crouched position with her head to the south. Probably
    the only grave good was a destroyed vessel. Pathological lesions were visible on the
    skull (presence of chronic otitis media, mastoiditis, multiple minor injuries) and on both
    tibia (periostitis). The radiocarbon data for this individual is:
    I6579/HB0022, grave 83: 2336-2047 calBCE (378035 BP, Poz-75954)


    Distance to: POL_EBA:I6579
    0.04864100 Finnish_Southeast
    0.05073086 Estonian
    0.05337782 Russian_Pskov
    0.05521055 Ingrian
    0.05587867 Lithuanian_VA
    0.05628805 Lithuanian_PA
    0.05761154 Cossack_Kuban
    0.05798171 Latvian
    0.05822161 Lithuanian_SZ
    0.05855653 Russian_Yaroslavl
    0.05866602 Russian_Tver
    0.05881274 Russian_Kursk
    0.05893401 Finnish_Central
    0.05994425 Russian_Kaluga
    0.06041586 Swedish
    0.06044532 Finnish_East
    0.06069039 Polish
    0.06076118 Lithuanian_RA
    0.06089220 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.06118176 Lithuanian_VZ
    0.06152687 Ukrainian_Rivne
    0.06210971 Belarusian
    0.06213826 Polish_Kashubian
    0.06221648 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.06248130 Ukrainian_Dnipro

    I think this sample can be considered as having a Baltic-Slavic drift?
    very interesting sample,

    by ancestry proportions, it's very similar to modern northern Lithuanians:

    Target: Lithuanian_PZ
    Distance: 8.4223% / 0.08422292
    56.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    22.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    21.6 WHG

    Target: POL_EBA:I6579
    Distance: 3.9293% / 0.03929338
    57.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    23.0 WHG
    20.0 TUR_Barcin_N

    however, when a Balto-Slavic source is added, this happens:

    Target: Lithuanian_PZ
    Distance: 2.1979% / 0.02197878
    77.2 Baltic_EST_BA
    10.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 WHG

    Target: POL_EBA:I6579
    Distance: 2.5096% / 0.02509561
    40.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    28.8 Baltic_EST_BA
    15.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    15.2 WHG

    So, his BS drift isn't that much higher compared to most Unetice samples, and he has additional WHG from a non-Balto-Slavic source.

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  15. #1898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Is there a way in G25 to distinguish real Balto-Slavic drift from WHG/EHG-rich ancestry with coincidental similarity?
    a quick and simple way is to add Baltic_EST_BA to the standard Davidski model, check the POL_EBA example above.

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  17. #1899
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    I made synthetic hypothetical European HG coordinates a while back:

    Baltic_HG,0.149868802,0.136380306,0.209730848,0.19 0840117,0.156106048,0.072437149,0.038002007,0.0636 88237,0.046382364,-0.072430537,-0.000902502,-0.05876715,0.106677275,0.144928109,-0.071019374,-0.005004616,0.021966607,0.003931878,-0.009757506,0.005758381,0.003759276,-0.024595198,0.007626296,-0.077723948,0.014953698

    Atlantic_HG,0.15783529,0.145428162,0.227399923,0.1 79637334,0.192737659,0.066128236,-0.006463956,0.062169167,0.151839868,0.11927273,-0.034165923,0.016107093,-0.03443422,0.000764432,0.130067707,-0.008322424,-0.104599534,-0.002026741,-0.05647959,0.01533621,0.094171013,-0.009430468,-0.034509132,-0.120477847,0.023748821

    Obviously such HG populations with Balto-Slavic/West European drift never existed, but I created it to differentiate HG rich European groups (Northwest Europeans v. Northeast Europeans). For example below is how English score vs. Polish

    Target: English
    Distance: 2.4724% / 0.02472415
    50.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    35.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    12.2 Atlantic_HG
    1.8 Baltic_HG

    Target: Polish
    Distance: 1.0585% / 0.01058520
    46.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    19.8 Baltic_HG
    1.8 Atlantic_HG
    0.4 East_Asian
    The Atlantic_HG contains 2 drifts: one which peaked in northern farmer groups like Scotland_N, the other peaked in western BBC groups like Bell_Beaker_Scotland. So yes, it's not connected to Hunter-Gatherers.

    As for Balto-Slavs, we still lack the samples to see how exactly it emerged, but an abstract of an upcoming study calls it a particular Hunter-Gatherer ancestry, hinting that it first emerged in a hunter gatherer group.

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  19. #1900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ After adding PL_N17 from Gustorzyn, I can draw a similar plausible north-western boundary of Balto-Slavic drift:

    (the previous map did not contain N17 because this sample is older than 1000 BCE)



    Distance to: POL_EBA:N17
    0.05677136 Russian_Tver
    0.05731770 Russian_Kursk
    0.05734487 Finnish_Southeast
    0.05759653 Ingrian
    0.05799950 Swedish
    when Wezlin and some other samples are taken into consideration, it looks something like this:

    before Yamnaya:


    immediately after the Yamnaya expansion :


    in the Bronze Age:

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