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  1. #1
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    The origin of the Slavs

    For reference.

    Two of the best online sources are:

    The synthesis of the Russian (St Petersburg based) archaeologist B. Schukin. Here: krotov.info/history/09/3/schukin.html

    The analysis of the Belarusian academic V. Nosevych. Here: http://vln.by/node/175

    Both texts are in Russian. But Nosevych has many excellent accompanying maps and drawings which are basically understandable on their own.

    Both scholars favour a late emergence of Slavdom. In Nosevych btw, node 175 is just the introductory page. Scroll down and click on the link to the right at the bottom to proceed node by node.

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  3. #2
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    In English:

    Paul Barford, The Early Slavs: Culture and Society in Early Medieval Eastern Europe (2001): http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Early-Sl.../dp/0801439779

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  5. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    In English:

    Paul Barford, The Early Slavs: Culture and Society in Early Medieval Eastern Europe (2001): http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Early-Sl.../dp/0801439779
    Jean, were do you think the slavic lineage was between the time of the yamnaya and the time when the slavic lineage moved into poland, and how long do you think that time period was?

    Also, do you subscribe to the ringe phylogeny referenced by Anthony? If so, where and when do you think the balto slavic lineage separated from the indo iranian lineage?

    I rather like the idea mentioned by david anthony which is that the lineage for slavic and iranian (some kind of proto conglomerate at the time) resulted from a fusion of CT and minor yamnaya contribution, and then moved northward. I like it because it separates slavic lineage from yamnaya (you disagree I'm sure) and because CT offers the demographic power to result in widespread r1a movement and eventually slavic and iranian. Eastern CW could have been another source and a CW contribution is nearly a given.
    Last edited by nuadha; 07-20-2015 at 11:20 PM.

  6. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    Jean, were do you think the slavic lineage was between the time of the yamnaya and the time when the slavic lineage moved into poland, and how long do you think that time period was?

    Also, do you subscribe to the ringe phylogeny referenced by Anthony? If so, where and when do you think the balto slavic lineage separated from the indo iranian lineage?

    I rather like the idea mentioned by david anthony which is that the lineage for slavic and iranian (some kind of proto conglomerate at the time) resulted from a fusion of CT and minor yamnaya contribution, and then moved northward. I like it because it separates slavic lineage from yamnaya (you disagree I'm sure) and because CT offers the demographic power to result in widespread r1a movement and eventually slavic and iranian. Eastern CW could have been another source and a CW contribution is nearly a given.
    The structure of R1a doesn't look neolithic. The Karelia R1a dude doesn't look like he came from CT. And in terms of archealogy there are a handful of reasons why Dnieper Donets and/or Bug-Dniester work better for R1a. In this case CT is likely just a source of maternal lineages for Dnieper-Donets and CW. Just like Yamnaya likely was for Sintashta-Andronovo. Plus we have R1a from the border of Western Russia and Belarus which is pretty close to (if not in? anyone with a better grasp of Eastern European geography can chime in) Dnieper Donets territory.

    Or perhaps you think the Dnieper Donets I/II/II hunter gatherers (and their Middle Dnieper descendants in later CW lands) that dominated the Ukranian/Russian steppe, Ukranian/Russian forest steppe and forest zone of N.Ukraine and South/CentralBelarus were entirely?

    Bug-Dniester is also a good candidate and some have speculated it played a role in the formation of Dnieper Donets. Plus the northern edge of those rivers end up in the theorized genesis of CW in SE Poland.

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  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    The structure of R1a doesn't look neolithic. The Karelia R1a dude doesn't look like he came from CT. And in terms of archealogy there are a handful of reasons why Dnieper Donets and/or Bug-Dniester work better for R1a. In this case CT is likely just a source of maternal lineages for Dnieper-Donets and CW. Just like Yamnaya likely was for Sintashta-Andronovo. Plus we have R1a from the border of Western Russia and Belarus which is pretty close to (if not in? anyone with a better grasp of Eastern European geography can chime in) Dnieper Donets territory.

    Or perhaps you think the Dnieper Donets I/II/II hunter gatherers (and their Middle Dnieper descendants in later CW lands) that dominated the Ukranian/Russian steppe, Ukranian/Russian forest steppe and forest zone of N.Ukraine and South/CentralBelarus were entirely?

    Bug-Dniester is also a good candidate and some have speculated it played a role in the formation of Dnieper Donets. Plus the northern edge of those rivers end up in the theorized genesis of CW in SE Poland.
    I wasn't saying that the IE r1a (the r1a broadly tied to IE expansions in slavs, balts, iranians, etc...) necessarily came from CT and I do concede that the IE r1a, almost without a doubt, had its origin in EHG. So I agree with most of what you say.

    I think the fallen CT are a decent candidate for a large chunk of the man power (not literally just men) that was needed for the r1a associated IE migrations that also brought a crapload of autosomal dna mtdna towards central asia. I think the fallen CT is also a good candidate for the linguistic transfer of early IE in r1b yamnaya to a non r1b population. Of course yamnaya being predominantly r1b and the main source of early IE is just my opinion. Maybe the CT had r1a (picked up from the the north) or maybe they didn't. At some point though, I think its likely that r1b yamnaya taught r1a people to the northwest IE and those r1a people then spread into central asia. For the language tree I use ringe et al.

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    I wasn't saying that the IE r1a (the r1a broadly tied to IE expansions in slavs, balts, iranians, etc...) necessarily came from CT and I do concede that the IE r1a, almost without a doubt, had its origin in EHG. So I agree with most of what you say.

    I think the fallen CT are a decent candidate for a large chunk of the man power (not literally just men) that was needed for the r1a associated IE migrations that also brought a crapload of autosomal dna mtdna towards central asia. I think the fallen CT is also a good candidate for the linguistic transfer of early IE in r1b yamnaya to a non r1b population. Of course yamnaya being predominantly r1b and the main source of early IE is just my opinion. Maybe the CT had r1a (picked up from the the north) or maybe they didn't. At some point though, I think its likely that r1b yamnaya taught r1a people to the northwest IE and those r1a people then spread into central asia. For the language tree I use ringe et al.
    This entire post seems wrong.

    -Why invoke CT at all? Some gene flow into the steppe/forest steppe sure. But for all we know the autosomal signature of R1a was already present by 7000-4000 BC and is something like 80% Dnieper-Donets and 20% CT. It is clear the expansion of R1a into Central Asia is related to the invention of chariots and the creation of weaponry/metal working unheard of in the Yamanya period. And the most common lineage in Andronovo/Central Asian IE speakers (mt T) was already common in Dnieper Donets.

    -Yamnaya was never supposed to be early PIE. I have seen PIE dated to 4500 BC-4000 BC. I doubt it is even late PIE. PIE/Pre-PIE is better placed in Late Samara (R1b-M73+?), Sredny Stog (R1b-L23*?) and Dnieper Donets II/III (R1a-Z2645?). You are right that Yamnaya being the early source of IE and Indo-Europeanizing R1a is only your opinion. One that is wrong and the sort of biased, imaginary nonsense that is best restricted to a site like Eupedia.

    -Yamnaya looks Z2103 dominant. So in all likelhood Michal is right and Yamnaya-Afanasievo represents the speakers of the Balkan group of languages. Which is actually in line with the theories by numerous Finnish and Russian archeologists that Yamnaya represented the speakers of Greco(Balkan group)-Aryan(Indo-Iranian) with the forest steppe Abashevo group representing Indo-Iranian speakers as well. Only thing they were wrong on was that Indo-Iranian was restricted to the forest steppe rather than being split up between the forest steppe and Volga-Ural steppe (some Poltavka samples will obviously confirm this one way or the other).

    -It is unlikely R1b-L51 will be found in Yamnaya imo. But even if it is are you suggesting that Italo-Celtic-Germanic shared a node with the Balkan group so late in history. Unlikely. You are essentially suggesting there was no divergence between the Balkan group, the groups that led to Italo-Celtic and Germanic, Tocharian and three apparently Indo-Europeanized R1a groups (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Xiahhoe and possibly five or six if R1a-CTS4385, R1a-Z282-A and R1a-Z284 also spoke some extinct IE languages) between 3500-2800 BC. Unlikely. You might find some agreement with Jean here but I'll go with the linguists and archeologists who split up Iranian and Indo-Aryan by 2800-2500 BC.

    -Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic do not make a node. Never have, never will.I am sure some satemization arguments will follow. But that is rejected by most linguists. And it is clear that Satemization behaves differently in Indo-Iranian vs Slavic vs Baltic which confirms the areal nature of this feature that R1b guys are fixated on.

    -I think R1b is an EHG marker but we wil likely need some confirmation now that we know the Samara R1b EHG was M73+(although to be fair R1a will need some confirmation too given the Karelia guy belongs to R1a-M459). Michal's SE Caspian origin of R1b-M269 (in line with the distribution of M269(xL23) in Western Central Asia?) might be well and alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    Jean, were do you think the slavic lineage was between the time of the yamnaya and the time when the slavic lineage moved into poland, and how long do you think that time period was?

    Also, do you subscribe to the ringe phylogeny referenced by Anthony? If so, where and when do you think the balto slavic lineage separated from the indo iranian lineage?

    I rather like the idea mentioned by david anthony which is that the lineage for slavic and iranian (some kind of proto conglomerate at the time) resulted from a fusion of CT and minor yamnaya contribution, and then moved northward. I like it because it separates slavic lineage from yamnaya (you disagree I'm sure) and because CT offers the demographic power to result in widespread r1a movement and eventually slavic and iranian. Eastern CW could have been another source and a CW contribution is nearly a given.

    I really don't get this obsession with linking Slavs or other R1a-dominated IEs with CT. CT was a Neolithic farmer culture who in some way certainly contributed to the ancestry of most modern Slavs but Neolithic Farmer culture like CT had a bigger impact on all other European IEs except of Balts (EEF level). Proto Balto-Slavs seems to originate from the middle Dnjepr region and late Proto-Slavic originated in the most southern zone of the Proto-Balto-Slavic continuum somewhere in northern Ukraine (Kiev culture).
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 07-21-2015 at 04:52 AM.

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  13. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I really don't get this obsession with linking Slavs or other R1a-dominated IEs with CT. CT was a Neolithic farmer
    Im not very partial towards the idea, it just looks like a possibility worth mentioning. Im not even saying r1a was in the CT but never the less they could have been a vehicle for language transfer and a degree of manpower (we both appear to agree on this).

    If it turns out that CT was as neolithic as you say and mostly lacked r1a then the theory becomes less likely. But I don't know that the CT was super neolithic and lacked r1a.

    The other possibility I see, perhaps more plausible is Yamnaya directly interacting with CW and transferring language.





    Proto Balto-Slavs seems to originate from the middle Dnjepr region and late Proto-Slavic originated in the most southern zone of the Proto-Balto-Slavic continuum somewhere in northern Ukraine (Kiev culture).
    just to be clear I'm not saying that the collapsed CT peoples who took on the language of the neighboring yamnaya pooped out Slavic, Baltic, Indo Iranian, etc... What I'm saying is that (maybe) the collapsed CT people took on IE which was to be ancestral to the post Italo-Celtic stuff, and that soon after this acquisition/fusion, differences started to form among their descendants. One variation could be ancestral to balto slavic but not ancestral to iranian. But that doesn't mean that balto slavic itself was one of the variations or that one of the variations would only lead to balto slavic and nothing else.

    Seems to me that the slavic lineage could have went from yamnaya to CT (david explains this) to the dnieper and then finally westward as slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    Jean, were do you think the slavic lineage was between the time of the yamnaya and the time when the slavic lineage moved into poland, and how long do you think that time period was?
    The Middle Dnieper culture seems to represent the region in which Proto-Balto-Slavic developed. The Fatyanovo culture seems to represent those groups who drifted northeast from the Middle Dnieper, developing Proto-Baltic, who would eventually reach the Baltic.

    Map of Copper Age cultures from Anthony 2007. Click to enlarge.

    Map18.jpg

    The Slavs seem to represent the people of the Middle Dnieper culture who chose to stay behind until they exploded out in the Middle Ages. There is a series of related cultures in the middle Dnieper region which eventually becomes the one archaeologists see spreading out in the Migration Period into the areas where Slavic-speakers appear in early records by others, and eventually in their own records.

    Map of the Slavic movements. Click to enlarge.


    Map35.jpg
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-21-2015 at 09:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    Jean ... Also, do you subscribe to the ringe phylogeny referenced by Anthony? If so, where and when do you think the balto slavic lineage separated from the indo iranian lineage?
    This is the Ringe tree of Indo-European, with chronology:

    RingeIEchron.JPG

    This is my version for Ancestral Journeys:

    Diagram7.JPG

    As you will see, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian are regarded as separate branches of the IE tree. They share certain features. You could see that as due to the fact that they were the last branches to leave PIE, which had continued to develop. Or you could see it as a function of their development in close contact - whatever makes more sense to you. Perhaps a linguist will come along and explain the matter better, if we are lucky.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-21-2015 at 10:10 AM.

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