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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    New average on Global25

    Code:
    Ukrainian_Lviv,0.1305714,0.1288274,0.061255,0.0484961,0.03693,0.0184466,0.0095344,0.0112084,-0.0009933,-0.0150999,-0.0034333,-0.0060161,0.0123387,0.0214103,-0.0103534,-0.0059476,0.000354,-0.0012306,0.0053691,-0.0001964,-0.0039216,-0.0029503,0.0057399,-0.0010844,-0.0023266
    Western Ukrainians in general have an increased Vlach/Romanian input and Proto-Romanians themselves to a degree represent Proto-Albanian-speakers from south of the Danube who shifted to speaking Latin. Vlachs brought to western Ukraine: 1)Balkan ancestry 2) Proto-Albanian terms which had been retained in Proto-Romanian.

    The result:

    Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
    Distance: 0.4233% / 0.00423337 | R4P
    45.8 Lithuanian_VZ
    29.8 Moldovan
    14.0 Albanian
    10.4 Polish_Kashubian

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  3. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Western Ukrainians in general have an increased Vlach/Romanian input and Proto-Romanians themselves to a degree represent Proto-Albanian-speakers from south of the Danube who shifted to speaking Latin. Vlachs brought to western Ukraine: 1)Balkan ancestry 2) Proto-Albanian terms which had been retained in Proto-Romanian.

    The result:

    Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
    Distance: 0.4233% / 0.00423337 | R4P
    45.8 Lithuanian_VZ
    29.8 Moldovan
    14.0 Albanian
    10.4 Polish_Kashubian
    You can't differentiate what is ancient (Daco-Thracian in particular) vs. more recent (Southern Vlach). The Vlachs being to a large degree of Daco-Thracian descent even, which complicates the whole pattern even more. Without way more modern and ancient DNA, the direction of the gene flow is oftentimes hard to determine. Like some clades could as well have been carried by Slavic groups South, from the Carpathians, form locals which were picked up, as well as going North more recently with Vlachs and Greeks. Going by the data we have right now, its in many cases impossible to know for sure.

  4. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    You can't differentiate what is ancient (Daco-Thracian in particular) vs. more recent (Southern Vlach). The Vlachs being to a large degree of Daco-Thracian descent even, which complicates the whole pattern even more. Without way more modern and ancient DNA, the direction of the gene flow is oftentimes hard to determine. Like some clades could as well have been carried by Slavic groups South, from the Carpathians, form locals which were picked up, as well as going North more recently with Vlachs and Greeks. Going by the data we have right now, its in many cases impossible to know for sure.
    Vlachs weren't "to a large decree of Daco-Thracian descent". Most Proto-Romanians didn't even live north of the Danube before late antiquity.

    Prendergast, Eric (2017). The Origin and Spread of Locative Determiner Omission in the Balkan Linguistic Area
    Systematic and deeply integrated lexical borrowing from Latin into Albanian attests to a long-term period of multilingualism between proto-Albanian and Balkan Latin. Balkan Romance appears to be the outcome of Albanian speakers shifting into Latin and carrying important elements of Albanian grammatical structure into the resulting speech form.

    For from Lviv to be modeled as 14% Albanian and 30% Moldavian, it means that they have native Balkan ancestry which didn't really exist in Transylvania or the Carpathians before the Vlachs reached those areas from the south in the early middle ages.


    Target: Moldovan
    Distance: 0.3029% / 0.00302898 | R5P
    28.2 Russian_Smolensk
    25.6 Montenegrin
    17.8 Turkish_Deliorman
    15.0 Bulgarian
    13.4 Greek_Thessaly

    If we are looking, however, for E-V13 lineages which may have reached the region before the Proto-Romanians, we should be looking for lineages which came from Pannonia via Czech lands in my opinion. These should exist, but overall they're very few from what I've been able to check.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 10-17-2021 at 10:44 PM.

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  6. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Vlachs weren't "to a large decree of Daco-Thracian descent". Most Proto-Romanians didn't even live north of the Danube before late antiquity.
    a) That's questionable.
    b) Doesn't matter, because almost the whole Danubian region from the Middle Danube downward was heavily settled by Daco-Thracian related people since the LBA.

    If they weren't largely of Daco-Thracian descent, them having more E-V13 than other groups would make even less sense.

    Prendergast, Eric (2017). The Origin and Spread of Locative Determiner Omission in the Balkan Linguistic Area
    Systematic and deeply integrated lexical borrowing from Latin into Albanian attests to a long-term period of multilingualism between proto-Albanian and Balkan Latin. Balkan Romance appears to be the outcome of Albanian speakers shifting into Latin and carrying important elements of Albanian grammatical structure into the resulting speech form.
    Within the Vlach networks, the Southern groups were surely very influential and migrated up and down. But that doesn't answer the ancestry of later Vlach groups and how much of the more Northern groups persisted or was taken up by the Southern Vlachs once they expanded, just like the local Slavs were assimilated.

    For from Lviv to be modeled as 14% Albanian and 30% Moldavian, it means that they have native Balkan ancestry which didn't really exist in Transylvania or the Carpathians before the Vlachs reached those areas from the south in the early middle ages.
    You don't know how much of it survived in the Carpathian and Pannonian sphere. E-V13 was also present among all people tested for that regions, Provincial Romans, Germanics, Avars, Hungarian conqueror period, Slavs etc. That was all independent of or before the supposed Northward migration of Southern Vlachs.

    If we are looking, however, for E-V13 lineages which may have reached the region before the Proto-Romanians, we should be looking for lineages which came from Pannonia via Czech lands in my opinion. These should exist, but overall they're very few from what I've been able to check.
    I think that both some local lineages survived, but also from Czech-Slovak-Pannonian regions some spread indeed. We really need more samples, ancients and modern, to know more.

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  8. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post

    If they weren't largely of Daco-Thracian descent, them having more E-V13 than other groups would make even less sense.
    Groups which shifted from Proto-Albanian to Latin would carry the same E-V13 as Proto-Albanians and when they moved to the north, something which historically happened, they would have brought E-V13 with them. Groups like Rusyns partially descend from these people, so it's perfectly understandable that they have more E-V13 than other populations in the region. It it self-evident that groups of partially Balkan origin will have haplogroups + ancestry which is more likely to be found in the Balkans than outside of the Balkans.

    Same coordinates with 5P and 6P restrictions:

    Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
    Distance: 0.3977% / 0.00397738 | R6P
    31.8 Lithuanian_VZ
    21.6 Russian_Smolensk
    19.8 Moldovan
    15.8 Albanian
    8.2 Polish_Kashubian
    2.8 German_East

    Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
    Distance: 0.4014% / 0.00401421 | R5P
    33.2 Lithuanian_VZ
    20.4 Moldovan
    19.6 Russian_Smolensk
    16.6 Albanian
    10.2 Polish_Kashubian

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  10. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Groups which shifted from Proto-Albanian to Latin would carry the same E-V13 as Proto-Albanians and when they moved to the north, something which historically happened, they would have brought E-V13 with them. Groups like Rusyns partially descend from these people, so it's perfectly understandable that they have more E-V13 than other populations in the region. It it self-evident that groups of partially Balkan origin will have haplogroups + ancestry which is more likely to be found in the Balkans than outside of the Balkans.

    Same coordinates with 5P and 6P restrictions:

    Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
    Distance: 0.3977% / 0.00397738 | R6P
    31.8 Lithuanian_VZ
    21.6 Russian_Smolensk
    19.8 Moldovan
    15.8 Albanian
    8.2 Polish_Kashubian
    2.8 German_East

    Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
    Distance: 0.4014% / 0.00401421 | R5P
    33.2 Lithuanian_VZ
    20.4 Moldovan
    19.6 Russian_Smolensk
    16.6 Albanian
    10.2 Polish_Kashubian
    G25 just picks what fits best even if its not the right source. Albanians are the only people left with a majority ancestry not as heavily shifted to the Near East or the Slavs.
    Once we get ancient samples from different pre-Slavic groups all around, the real ancestral components can be used.

    How fo you explain the stable presence of E-V13 (about 4-5 %) in Poles and Russians too? Its only lower in more Baltic or Uralic areas.
    Its not allmore recent Vlach migrations. But we'll see.

  11. #1567
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    I do not know if it has already been said, but in the context of the E-V13 related to the Slavs, it is worth recalling a sample from Moravia from the late Roman period:

    Target: Pre-Slavic?_Breclav:LIB11
    Distance: 2.3705% / 0.02370516 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.0 Croatian
    37.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    13.6 Polish_Kashubian
    3.8 Berber_MAR_ERR
    1.0 Mbuti

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    I do not know if it has already been said, but in the context of the E-V13 related to the Slavs, it is worth recalling a sample from Moravia from the late Roman period:

    Target: Pre-Slavic?_Breclav:LIB11
    Distance: 2.3705% / 0.02370516 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.0 Croatian
    37.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    13.6 Polish_Kashubian
    3.8 Berber_MAR_ERR
    1.0 Mbuti

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
    He might be more important than the Roman sample indeed, because to Rome came many people, from all corners of the world and just a couple of generations later his original genetic make up (Central European, Germanic, Slavic, Ligurian, Greek, Thracian, Veneti - so many options) would have been lost.
    The LIB11 guy too might have had ancestry in the other direction, coming from Balkan-Pannonia, ending up in Moravia, who knows. But more likely he was coming from the East and most likely he was a Central European.

    The two main subclades from this group in the Balkans, one among Serbs, the other among Albanians, are distinct and fairly old. But since their local age is shallow, their ultimate origin is not resolved. Interestingly both (E-BY5617 and E-Y142744) have Czechs upstream at the moment. But then again, they split between the original LBA expansion and Hallstatt, so this is fairly old already, predating Slavs.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-18-2021 at 09:23 AM.

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  15. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    G25 just picks what fits best even if its not the right source. Albanians are the only people left with a majority ancestry not as heavily shifted to the Near East or the Slavs.
    Once we get ancient samples from different pre-Slavic groups all around, the real ancestral components can be used.

    How fo you explain the stable presence of E-V13 (about 4-5 %) in Poles and Russians too? Its only lower in more Baltic or Uralic areas.
    Its not allmore recent Vlach migrations. But we'll see.
    It picks Albanians because Vlachs actually descend from Proto-Albanians and because they represent Balkan ancestry. It's not just a random pick.

    Neither Poles, nor Russians are 5% E-V13. The largest study ever done on Poles (n=2,705) showed that E is 3.84%.

    Y-Chromosome Genetic Analysis of Modern Polish Population
    The most frequent Y-SNP binary haplogroups in all analyzed samples were found to be R (71.02%), I (15.71%), N (4.29%), E (3.84%), J (3.22%), and G (1.22%). The total contribution of the others, viz. Q, C, T, H, and O, totaled less than 1% (0.70%), and each comprised only individual samples (Table 1).

    There's nothing really unexpected in these results.


    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    I do not know if it has already been said, but in the context of the E-V13 related to the Slavs, it is worth recalling a sample from Moravia from the late Roman period:

    Target: Pre-Slavic?_Breclav:LIB11
    Distance: 2.3705% / 0.02370516 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.0 Croatian
    37.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    13.6 Polish_Kashubian
    3.8 Berber_MAR_ERR
    1.0 Mbuti

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
    Target: Migration_LIB:LIB11
    Distance: 2.6203% / 0.02620257 | R5P
    42.0 Baltic_EST_BA
    32.2 HRV_EBA
    16.4 Wales_CA_EBA
    5.8 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    3.6 Levant_JOR_EBA

    This is a post-Roman sample from the beginning of the 6th century. It's basically an early medieval individual. Given his high Balkan and southern ancestry which didn't exist in Moravia, it's more likely than not that he's the descendant of someone who migrated from the Balkans to Moravia and that his partially Slavic origin is the result of admixture in the region.

    Indeed, Vlachs have been constantly migrating to Moravia, see Moravian Wallachia. I'm not saying that all E-V13 in central Europe are of medieval Vlach ancestry, but that from the ones we have seen so far, many of them are descendants of such migrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    It picks Albanians because Vlachs actually descend from Proto-Albanians and because they represent Balkan ancestry. It's not just a random pick.
    Not random, but similarity is not necessarily identity.

    Concerning the Polish E-V13, you need to concentrate on the regions which are not as much Baltic shifted, like especially Southern Poland where the percentage is higher and rather too high for all of it being just Vlach derived - though a portion of it might be. Many Polish regions surpass 5 percent: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Ar...67309-t001.jpg

    If its about Russian, there was a fairly new study on the large Russian regions and it concluded a percentage of 4-6 percent for all major Russian territories. Unfortunately I didn't find it ad hoc, probably someone else has it at hands.

    Indeed, Vlachs have been constantly migrating to Moravia, see Moravian Wallachia. I'm not saying that all E-V13 in central Europe are of medieval Vlach ancestry, but that from the ones we have seen so far, many of them are descendants of such migrants.
    I'm aware of Vlachs in Moravia, but where is the proof for the Central European locals being of Southern Vlach origin? There is none, even on the contrary, they are more often upstream of those in the South. What's even more, the Czech-Slovak variation continues into Germany, especially those areas being Slavic affected, but also including Hessen and down into Allemannic territory. Or do say that the E-V13 in Franconia (North Eastern Bavaria) and Saxony, which being old local heritage or Slavic-related, coming all with Vlachs? Highly unlikely, because considering the percentages, this would mean that a whole lot of the Slavic settlement in Central Europe was actually Vlach, really a lot. Because there were no Vlachs with 100 % E-V13 anywhere close and if you calculate that, its a similar problem like with Greece, just even less likely, because there was no mass migration of Vlachs into Bohemia, Saxony and Franconia. Even in Moravia, a lot might be rather about pastoralist traditions being picked up - though I have to say that the conflicting results from some studies on Moravian Vlach derived vs. Czech people needs to be resolved with more data. Some Vlach groups seem to have even less E-V13, while others accumulated a good proportion of it. This boils down to more modern results down to the subclades plus ancient DNA.

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