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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    Romanian results are clearly wrong because the sum of their haplogroups' frequencies totals to 105.7%.
    It's adding up to 104.3%. If you wish you can contact the authors asking them to provide errata to this article.

  2. #1002
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    double post.
    Last edited by Volat; 05-24-2016 at 01:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    It's adding up to 104.3%. If you wish you can contact the authors asking them to provide errata to this article.
    No, the sum is 105.7%.
    Besides seeing communication with the authors about this unnecessary, I wonder why don't you ask them yourself?

  4. #1004
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    Observations from another thread, but a Slavic-related one:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post158785

    Here is where Rebala's "Paternal landscape" 2012 study German samples were from:

    7 - Mecklenburg (only pre-WW2 inhabitants)
    8 - western Bavaria (as above)
    5 - Slavic Sorbs (as above)

    7+8 = German samples (Krzysztof Rebala's study) / Y-DNA from Robert Gabel's map:



    So Rebala found "significant differentiation" because he sampled only these regions.

    Link to Rebala's study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/

    Link to Gabel's map: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

    Website: http://www.robertgabel.de/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-24-2016 at 07:08 AM.

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  6. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Observations from another thread, but a Slavic-related one:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post158785

    Here is where Rebala's "Paternal landscape" 2012 study German samples were from:

    7 - Mecklenburg (only pre-WW2 inhabitants)
    8 - western Bavaria (as above)
    5 - Slavic Sorbs (as above)

    7+8 = German samples (Krzysztof Rebala's study) / Y-DNA from Robert Gabel's map:



    So Rebala found "significant differentiation" because he sampled only these regions.

    Link to Rebala's study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/

    Link to Gabel's map: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

    Website: http://www.robertgabel.de/
    Tom, to clarify, this is all modern patterns projected onto the former territory of German Empire, regardless of whether someone had a Slavic or German - sounding surname ?

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    Silence is also eloquent.

  9. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Tom, to clarify, this is all modern patterns projected onto the former territory of German Empire, regardless of whether someone had a Slavic or German - sounding surname ?
    Pre-World War patterns, and yes - regardless of surnames.

  10. #1009
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    Rebala wrote in his 2012 study:

    "Admixture estimates showed minor Slavic paternal ancestry (~20%) in modern eastern German
    But we should remember what was actually studied there, and what was not studied.

    For example, the idea that Rebala studied "modern" eastern Germans is wrong - he studied only Germans with pre-WW2 ancestry in Mecklenburg and Bavaria, without taking into account Germans who came to present-day East Germany in 1945+ from former "Ostgebiete".

    So Rebala's study examined not modern but "pre-1939" Germans, and only native Germans from two regions: Mecklenburg - much (or even most) of which according to Helmold's chronicle (Latin title: "Chronica Slavorum") was cleansed from its Pagan Slavic inhabitants and settled by Flemings, Frisians, Saxons, etc. - and Bavaria - an area which had never really been settled by Slavs except for its north-eastern corner ("Bavaria Slavica"). So no surprise, that Rebala found only ~20% of Slavic ancestry in pre-war Germans of these regions.

    The map by Robert Gabel actually shows Mecklenburg as mostly I1 + R1b, and Bavaria as mostly R1b.

    So there is no contradiction between Rebala's study and Gabel's map as far as these two regions are concerned.

    And let's stress once again, that Rebala's study examined only Germans with pre-WW2 roots in these two regions.

    In 1945+ there was a considerable influx of Germans from the east to Mecklenburg, which increased R1a frequency in the area (today in samples from various cities of Mecklenburg R1a stands at around 30%, plus/minus a few percent depending on city, but in Mecklenburg before 1945 it was closer to 15% - so the influx of Germans from behind the Oder-Neisse increased the frequency of R1a twice).

    Rebala also wrote:

    and hardly detectable German paternal ancestry in Slavs neighbouring German populations for centuries."
    First of all - Rebala did not examine neighbouring German populations, because these populations no longer exist intact since 1945 (I mean, they do exist, but these people are now dispersed all over Germany, more than half of them are actually in Western Germany today).

    Secondly - Rebala detected supposedly no "German" paternal ancestry in Slavs with surnames of German origin (and found no significant genetic differences as far Y-DNA is concerned between Slavs with Slavic surnames and Slavs with German surnames), and therefore he concluded that those Slavs were not descended from German-speakers, but rather from Slavic-speakers who had been given German surnames.

    However, historical sources do not confirm his hypothesis that German surnames were acquired "culturally" rather than "demographically" (i.e. through genealogical descent) by Slavs. Rather, historical sources indicate that if a Polish/Kashubian person has a German surname, then such a person inherited it from a German-speaker who was among his ancestors.

    Acquisition of surnames was usually along linguistic lines - that is, if your ancestor spoke Slavic as "Muttersprache" by the time he acquired his surname, then it would be highly unlikely for him to adopt a German surname. Similarly, German-speakers would not adopt/receive Slavic surnames, even if centuries or decades before the time period when surnames became popular in a particular region their ancestors had been Slavs or Old Prussians, who only later became Germanized ("Eindeutschung" is the proper word, IIRC ?).

    Therefore what really explains lack of significant genetic differences in Y-DNA between for example Kashubians with Slavic surnames and Kashubians with German surnames, is not lack of German-speaking ancestors for the latter group during the last several centuries (in times when surnames started to be used in this part of Europe), but rather the fact that those German-speakers had been mostly of R1a haplogroup in the first place / to begin with.

    Y-DNA data from FTDNA and Robert Gabel's map actually seem to confirm this.

    Remember, that Rebala did not test Y-DNA of Germans from Pomerania - i.e. former neighbours of Slavs (Kociewiaks and Kashubians) in these areas -, because since 1945 they live dispersed all over present-day Germany. However, Family Tree DNA has info about places of origin of most distant paternal ancestors (and these most distant ancestors were in 99% of all cases born before WW2), which means that we can reconstruct the genetic landscape in formerly German-speaking regions.

    More comments on Rebala's study below.

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  12. #1010
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    German populations studied by Rebala were these two (as the map posted above shows):

    Pre-1939 Mecklenburg (sample = 131)
    Pre-1939 western Bavaria (sample = 218)

    So we can't say that they were "neighbours" of studied Polish/Slavic populations, such as Kashubs and Kociewiaks:



    ^^^ Here are Y-DNA frequencies for Kashubians (Ka) and Kociewiaks (Ko):

    Y-DNA haplogroup - Kaszubi / Kociewiacy:

    R1a ----- 170 (63.4%) ----- / ----- 89 (56.3%)
    I1 ------- 35 (13.1%) ----- / ------ 13 (8.2%)
    R1b ----- 24 (9.0%) ------- / ----- 28 (17.7%)
    I2a ------ 8 (3.0%) ------- / ------- 9 (5.7%)
    I2b ------ 3 (1.1%) ------- / ----- - 3 (1.9%)
    E1b ------ 9 (3.4%) ------ / ------- 6 (3.8%)
    J --------- 6 (2.2%) ------- / ------ 3 (1.9%)
    G -------- 4 (1.5%) ------ / ------- 1 (0.6%)
    N1c ------ 3 (1.1%) ------ / ------- 3 (1.9%)
    Q1a ------ 2 (0.7%) ------ / ------- 0 (0.0%)
    other ----- 4 (1.5%) ----- / ------- 3 (1.9%)

    Total --- 268 (100%) --- / --- 158 (100%)


    These Polish populations were further divided by surnames (Slavic/Germanic/other surnames):

    The pre-WWII Polish samples were additionally divided into three subgroups, depending on surnames of the tested individuals. The first group comprised individuals carrying surnames with roots revealing Slavic/eastern European etymology or origin. Accordingly, males with surname roots indicating German/western European etymology or origin were included in the second group. The third group contained surnames with unclear or hybrid etymology. For each surname, the assignment was based on linguistic analysis provided in etymological dictionaries.
    The conclusion was: no genetic difference between people with German and Slavic surnames:

    Comparison of Y chromosomes associated with etymologically Slavic and German surnames (with frequencies provided in Table 1) did not reveal genetic differentiation within any of the three Polish regional populations for all three (FST, ΦST and RST) genetic distances. Moreover, the German surname-related Y chromosomes were comparably distant from Bavaria and Mecklenburg as the ones associated with the Slavic surnames (...)
    And the author hypothesized, trying to explain this:

    As German surnames are frequently encountered among the modern Poles, we have searched for such differentiation within the Polish pre-WWII regional populations. Both Slavic and German surname carriers revealed regional Y chromosome homogeneity and comparable genetic distances from the German populations, which suggests that etymologically German surnames in the studied populations may result, at least partially, from foreign administration and linguistic adaptation (eg, translation, common until the end of the 19th century and attested also in the 20th century)
    But there is actually no evidence that adopting German surnames by Slavic-speakers was a common thing.

    Nearly always having a German surname in the studied region means that a man had a German-speaking ancestor. Of course that man with German "Muttersprache" could be descended from Germanized Slavs, but that's another issue.

    On the other hand, it will also be interesting to see how common was R1a among East Germanic populations.

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