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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT1976 View Post
    Volat, I'm not sure what it is, but you can't seem to articulate much. First of all, archaeologists are no less "scholars" than linguists. Secondly, it's not just curta, but actual linguists too- like the Anderson I mentioned. Now, if this is not yet common amongst *all* linguists of Slavic, then it's simply a matter that they're behind the 8-ball, and still stuck in 1960s -era scholarship- where you evidently seem to draw all your references from.

    But I'm happy to listen. Please enlighten us what your sacred river names tell us about he origin of slavs... ?
    You're not listening and you are not putting much thought either.
    Reference relevant passages of Anderson's text where it is stated that Slavic language was 'developed' in 4AD-6AD. This is what you wrote above. And what he meant by the development of Slavic language in 4AD-6AD. More likely he referred to the last period before the divergence of the common Slavic languages. Even if assume there was a a some kind of turning point for Slavic language in 4AD-6AD then what language was spoken by the community prior to 4AD-6AD? Between 2nd BC and 4AD-6AD proto-Slavic and common Slavic languages were spoken by the community.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT1976 View Post
    Not having the faculties , abilities or bother to follow new sciences, then, makes these "scholars" not so bright, and stuck in the past. Secondly, Curta's book has received great attention and accolades- maybe not amongst some of the more backward academic environments, but then again, who cares about 19th century scholars ?

    And you don't really know who these "average Joe " bloggers are? Maybe they're far from average, and far outshine anything you have to offer
    There is a body of knowledge on the subject and all significant research was done in Slavic countries in the last 100 years. Most scholars have used archaeological, linguistic and written evidence in searching for the ancestral home. Curta's study was no exception. Curta is a historian living in USA, who collected information from primary research done before him offering his own conclusion stating Slavs were a creation in 4AD-6AD on east Roman frontier ignoring other forms of evidence about the Slavs living further north prior to-6AD and aftern 6AD. Curta's book received no attention in academic circles of Slavic countries and abroad. It received a rather negative attention. I know who are 'average Joes' unable to think rationally and critically to form their own opinions.
    Last edited by Volat; 07-25-2015 at 01:09 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    You weren't referring to that recent study specifically, but to academia in general.

    The truth is that most academics don't have a clue about population genetics, and when they attempt to get a clue, they fall in the trap of rehashing complete nonsense. How can you not know this?

    Do you really believe this sort of stuff that you write, or is appealing to authority just a bad habit that comes out when you get frustrated?
    Most academics write nonsense, while some folk on a forum for whom these very academics developed software, methodologies to estimate age of mutations, collected samples and whatnot know a great deal about what they write.

    The truth is that human genomics is not the best way in searching for the ancestral home-land of people who spoke common Slavic or proto-Slavic or any community for that matter that spoke a proto-language with or without reference to any authority. It's for this reason those who search for the ancestral home-land of a community use linguistic and archaeological evidence, while population geneticists discuss migrations of people not commenting on their cultures or languages . The reason why you believe people of the Pontic-Caspean Steppes that lived 5,000 years ago were PIE, is because archaeologists and linguists told you that PIE originated in Pontic-Caspean steppes, and not the other way around. The same would have happened had Anatolian hypothesis prevailed. Those who cannot think rationally and outside of square believing population genetics is the answer to everything usually get frustrated.

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    (Coldmountains) "Bog is clearly related to the old indo-Iranian term bhaga but I don't think it is a direct Iranian loanword and in my opinion it is just a late PIE term which was preserved among Slavs and Indo-Iranians."

    In ancient times, the "God" concept was crucially important. To accept your statement implies a VERY long-standing moral separation of Slavs from Balts (particularly in connection with the demotion of the significance of the "Deus"-type term among Slavs and its strong persistence among Balts, who BTW seem to miss the "bagha" variant afaik). I can't find much reason for this. What would be your scenario (in historical and archaeological terms)? Right now, I am thinking in terms of the Scythian period, and the linkage of (some of) the Slav ancestors with the Aukhata Scythians (Borysthenites). Not a new concept of course. This group of proto-Slavs was also involved in the post-Scythian Zarubinian (Bastarnian) culture (as a backbone of the Middle Dnipro variant thereof) and was a very significant component of the first genuinely "Slavic" archaeological culture, the so called "Kyivan culture" of ca. 200-450 AD. That could be one solution, not necessarily the right one, but certainly discussable.

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  6. #105
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    Slavic languages have a layer of Iranic loan-words. Some loan-words are related to religion. The other good candidate maybe Rai (paradise). In addition, east Slavs have Iranic deities -- Gamayun, Sirin and Alkonost, which are prophetic birds. One of these birds I cannot remember which may had been brought by Persian merchants to Crimea. Two pagan deities from Kyiv's pantheon are Simargl and Khors, which are believed to be Iranic in origin by some.

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  8. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Most academics write nonsense, while some folk on a forum for whom these very academics developed software, methodologies to estimate age of mutations, collected samples and whatnot know a great deal about what they write.

    The truth is that human genomics is not the best way in searching for the ancestral home-land of people who spoke common Slavic or proto-Slavic or any community for that matter that spoke a proto-language with or without reference to any authority. It's for this reason those who search for the ancestral home-land of a community use linguistic and archaeological evidence, while population geneticists discuss migrations of people not commenting on their cultures or languages . The reason why you believe people of the Pontic-Caspean Steppes that lived 5,000 years ago were PIE, is because archaeologists and linguists told you that PIE originated in Pontic-Caspean steppes, and not the other way around. The same would have happened had Anatolian hypothesis prevailed. Those who cannot think rationally and outside of square believing population genetics is the answer to everything usually get frustrated.
    [Personal attack deleted by moderator]
    Last edited by Moderator; 07-25-2015 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Personal attack deleted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Slavic languages have a layer of Iranic loan-words. Some loan-words are related to religion. The other good candidate maybe Rai (paradise). In addition, east Slavs have Iranic deities -- Gamayun, Sirin and Alkonost, which are prophetic birds. One of these birds I cannot remember which may had been brought by Persian merchants to Crimea. Two pagan deities from Kyiv's pantheon are Simargl and Khors, which are believed to be Iranic in origin by some.
    I hadn't heard about the first three you mention. But Simargl and Khors are definitely as you say. I wrote an article about this once, trying to link their recognition to that portion of the Old Kyivan aristocracy which had "Polanian" roots and putative Scytho-Sarmatian ancestry [Scythian "Pali/Poli", later Alanized as "Poli-an"] even though Slavonized. I remain doubtful of Sylvester's "popular" etymology of "Polani" for the founders of Kyiv, unless he meant them to have come "from the fields" (steppes), since Kyiv was in the forest zone.

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I hadn't heard about the first three you mention. But Simargl and Khors are definitely as you say. I wrote an article about this once, trying to link their recognition to that portion of the Old Kyivan aristocracy which had "Polanian" roots and putative Scytho-Sarmatian ancestry [Scythian "Pali/Poli", later Alanized as "Poli-an"] even though Slavonized. I remain doubtful of Sylvester's "popular" etymology of "Polani" for the founders of Kyiv, unless he meant them to have come "from the fields" (steppes), since Kyiv was in the forest zone.
    These three are definitely present in the Russian folklore. They were present in Rus on the territories of present day Ukraine back in the days. Not on the territories of Belarus, which hasve their own share of similarities with Baltic folklore. There is a legend about Sirin was introduced by Persian merchants in 8-9th centuries in Chersoneos, present day Ukraine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamayun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkonost

    I don't think Poliane has Iranic etymology, but who knows. There is plenty of information on Severians's connection with Iranic people including etymology of Severians. They settled in present-day Chernihiv, north-eastern Ukraine and adjacent territories of Russia.
    Last edited by Volat; 07-25-2015 at 01:58 PM.

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  12. #109
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    [Reference to personal attack removed by moderator]

    Average Joes are those who haven't read a book or an article on the subject and engage in discussions. We live in 2015 and most papers published on the ancestral home-land of a community still use archaeological and linguistic evidence extensively , for a reason which you have not been able to understand. Population geneticists discuss migrations of peoples.
    Last edited by Volat; 07-25-2015 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Removed reference to deleted text

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