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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #1701
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  3. #1702
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Here is I-M423 UMAP plot made from Y-DNA STR 37 values of FTDNA users.

    I think it fairly good shows the genetic distance and kinship between various M423 clades:

    Thx for this but what do STRs show more than what SNPs already show?
    Especially the closer distance of BY128 which is a subclade of S17250 to Y18331 rather than PH908 or other S17250* subclades shows why STRs aren't particularly reliable model to calculate distance between different yDna profiles.

    At least in this situation the good thing is that you can see which subclades had bigger founder effect and more descendants by just looking how far drifted away a certain subclade is from the core. In this case this is especially evident for PH908.
    Last edited by Aspar; 11-25-2021 at 12:32 PM.
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 2.0668% / 0.02066845
    37.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    34.8 BGR_IA
    27.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1

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  5. #1703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Thx for this but what do STRs show more than what SNPs already show?
    Especially the closer distance of BY128 which is a subclade of S17250 to Y18331 rather than PH908 or other S17250* subclades shows why STRs aren't particularly reliable model to calculate distance between different yDna profiles.

    At least in this situation the good thing is that you can see which subclades had bigger founder effect and more descendants by just looking how far drifted away a certain subclade is from the core. In this case this is especially evident for PH908.
    You already said why.
    From SNP tree I cannot tell how much Y18331 and PH908 drifted away from the core and how big the founder effect they experienced.
    And that it is possible to get the outline of the SNP tree from the STR values is fascinating, at least to me.
     
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  7. #1704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    The majority of people in the group Romania are not ethnic Romanians. Just look at the surnames: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized
    Out of 251 listed with their names, only 63 (1/4) are probably Romanian names, but this is not a guarantee that they are all Romanians:

    Leu C-M216
    Nicolae Dobre, b.c. 1880, Sovarna, Mehedinti E-CTS9320
    Mos Vasile, b. 1860 E-M35
    Dinu E-M35
    ??? Popa E-M35
    Anton Tuceanu, xxxx-1948, Chisinau, Moldova E-M35
    Gheorghe Tuceac, Glodeni, Moldova E-M35
    Pantelimon Taranu, early 1800's, Jupalnic, Romania E-M35
    Perte / Pertea, Romania E-M35
    Mihai Dobre, b.c. 1810; d. 1868, Valea Marului, RO E-V13
    Gavril Martazan (b. 1769 - ), Ocnitza, Bessarabia E-V13
    Ciobanu E-Z16988
    Gheorghe Iordache, Sinaia, Romania G-CTS342
    Gheorghe Iordache, Sinaia, Romania G-CTS342
    Toparcea, Romania G-L1264
    Daniel Neculau, b. 1861 and d. 1917 I-A6741
    L69+ George Prata,1880-1932, Abrud, Romania I-BY25363
    Nicolae Comsa, 1863-1944 I-BY37212
    Nicholas Tabar, b. 1900, Jimbolia, Romania, (to US I-L22
    Marian Lita, Lunca, Teleorman, Romania I-M170
    ??? Sumurducan, Cluj, Romania I-M253
    Toma, b.c. 1850 I-M253
    Petru Kutașiu I-P37
    Iordache Ciocoiu, b.1898, Baclesti, Bacau, Romania I-P37
    Dragulin Mustaciosu, b. 1815, d. nov 11, 1885 I-P37
    Vasile Munteanu b. abt. 1850 (GF? from Făgăraş) I-PH3895
    Trif Gheorghe, b 1867, Romania I-S17250
    Suciu, Sibiu, Romania I-Y3548
    Gheorghe Jurca, b.c. 1850, Bucea, Romania I-Y4460
    Mantu Popescu, 1877-1950, Smeeni, Romania J-BY137584
    Prisacariu J-CTS3292
    Voicu Şulcă, 1790-18.., Mățău, România J-FT139658
    Gheorghe Radu b. cca. 1818 d. cca. 1883 J-M172
    Dumitru Balomirean, b.c. 1875, Sibisan, RO J-M172
    Andrei Olar, c.1803 - 1866 J-M172
    Ion Iurea 1907-1940 J-M172
    ??? Poltan, Romania J-M172
    Ioan (John) Sladariu, b. 1930, Botosani, Romania J-M410
    Dimitrache Ticu Stefanescu, b.c. 1810, Bucharest N-L1025
    http://origineagherga.blogspot.com N-M232
    Neculai RUSU, b.1820,Vizantea,Romania N-VL15
    Iordan Burcă, b. 1878 (?) and d. 1919 N-Y11882
    Ion Draghici b.c. 1775, Cujmir, Mehedinti, Romania R-FGC12324
    Craciun Sfasie, 19th century R-FGC36273
    Ioan-Constantin Cainaru, b. 1852 in Bucșoaia R-FGC4166
    Gheorghe Georgescu, 1870-1940, Brosteni, Romania R-FT116278
    Iordache Bosinceanu, d. 1887 R-FT197901
    Petru Petcu, b. 1889 (Unip) and d. 1968 (MO)(Y) R-FT44409
    Todor Brendján ~1800, Satu Mare (Bukovina) Romania R-M17
    Chitau Dumitru , b. 19** d. 2020 R-M198
    Vasile Cucu, Chitoc, Vaslui, Romania R-M198
    Gavrila Pajor, b. 1935 and d. 2017 R-M269
    Stamate Budurescu, b. early 1800s R-M269
    ??? Maciovan, b. 1872, Caras-Severin, Romania R-M269
    ??? Voinescu, b. 18th century, Pietrari, Valcea, R R-M269
    Dumitru Onuta, Tufestii de Jos, Iasi, Romania R-M269
    Emilian Iclozan, b. 1889, Lugoj, Timis, Romania R-M512
    MIHAI STERIAN R-M512
    ??? Trifan, Zimnicea, Romania R-P312
    Vasile Aghinitei, b. 1944, Putureni, Romania R-PF7580
    alex dragan R-Y5587
    Vasilie Hurgoi, 1771 - 15 Aug 1831, Gyula, Hungary R-YP610
    ??? Lazar, b. in Bacau Co., Romania T-L446


    The remaining 188 have names mostly of Jewish and German origin.
    Last edited by mie; 12-02-2021 at 11:27 AM.

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  9. #1705
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    It is not a very good idea to publish real names with associated Y-DNA attributions.
     
    Some simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps, plots and calculations I ask for a donation of $2 or €1.7 per map/plot via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account.
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  10. #1706
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    Romania
    Do you know? The data has long been published by the FTDNA, here:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized
    Last edited by mie; 12-02-2021 at 12:19 PM.

  11. #1707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    If the Byzantines learned that the Slavs were calling themselves Serbs they were have recorded it for sure so there is no need for fairytales in this regard.
    I wonder that obviously someone claimed 'the Slavs were calling themselves Serbs'. What an absurd nonsense!
    Certainly some serb nationalism (which is very strong under serbs).

  12. #1708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I've told you ones, there is nothing reasonable and scientific in your simplified and with nothing supported theory about PH908 being proto-Serb while Z17855 being proto-Bulgar or Anti.

    There are even some Z17855* lineages among the Serbs not found among other people, clear indication that both PH908 and Z17855 precede the formation of the Serbian or the Bulgarian people.
    I have to agree with this. The discussion about the South Slavs is misleading from the start because is taking into consideration the terminology of modern national identities and borders which were formed in the 19th century. If you look at the approximate location of South Slavic tribes and borders of the early medieval principalities they were not the same as today. The biggest difference is observed about Serbian borders. The greater part of Serbia was under First Bulgarian Empire and Byzantine Empire. Only between 12th and 14th century there expanded Serbian political control and with it ethnic identity. In such sense exclusively relating I-PH908 with a proto-Serb tribe couldn't be more wrong and instead we should be speaking about tribes which were settled there before the late medieval expansion of the Serbian identity. Were there any other tribes before Serbs? If yes, there's your answer.

    Not only it predates the formation of modern South Slavic nations it also predates the formation of individual tribes. We are not dealing with individual tribes, maybe some tribal alliances, but certainly broader Slavic migrations which were a mixture of many tribes and tribal alliances and trying to pin-point an individual tribe within such an movement couldn't be more, well, naively stupid.
    Last edited by Garand82; 12-10-2021 at 01:23 AM.

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  14. #1709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Of course they did, but only for the Serbo-Croat branches of PH908. What that map shows you've posted earlier is the sea of Slavs described by Jordanes in the 5th century and the area of Romania inhabited by Slavs was the area of Ipoteshti-Kandeshti culture. Archeology wise this one was mix of both Penkovka and Prague-Korchak elements, or Sclaveni-Anti mix. In other words, this culture should have been an approximately equal mix of both PH908 and Z17855 as we see today in Bulgaria and Macedonia for example, not a total domination of PH908 as we see in the western Balkans.

    My opinion of the Serbo-Croat PH908 branches is that they are the result of migrations of tribes rich in PH908 first in Central Europe and then to Western Balkans. PH908 branches today in Czechia and Germany are the imprints of these migrations that took place in the past. In other words, the migrations of Serbs and Croats happened exactly as in the book of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.
    In the first paragraph you were on the right track while in the second lost it. There is no rich region of I-PH908 in Central Europe. Actually, there is no rich region of haplogroup I2 in general. I never saw a paper about the state of Saxony and Sorbs as well other Polabian Slavs where haplogroup I2 in general is higher than 5%. It has a constant of 2-5%. In the country of Czechia is double and only in eastern Czechia is reaching 10%. Such low frequencies are crystal clear - it was not the starting point of migration but ending point of migration of I-PH908. Also, we are again not dealing with an individual tribe or tribes. These are just traces of the general movement of the Slavs of the Prague-Korchak archaeological culture from the Western Carpathians to Bohemia and Polabia in the 6th and 7th century.

    The book of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus could be right about the migration of the Serb and Croat tribes, although I wouldn't take it for granted, but certainly isn't right about the migration of I-PH908 from Central Europe to the Western Balkans. The confusion exactly happened because of equating modern national identities with tribal identities. Who says that Serb and Croat tribes must have been I-PH908? Only because is one of dominant subclades in modern Serb and Croat nations? What are we going to hear next, that the Huns, Kutrigurs, Bulgars, Avars and Magyars came as dominantly R1a and R1b to Pannonian Basin from Central Asia? It is nationalist bollocks.

    These two tribes cannot be responsible for settling much of the Western Balkans and even less whole Balkans and with it for the most of I-PH908 and even less I2 there. The distribution of I-PH908 among South Slavs (and neighboring non-Slavic countries) shows it must have been part of a much larger movement of the Slavs from Eastern Carpathians and maybe even more to the east, being a mixture of Korchak (Sclaveni) and Penkovka (Antae). In some Balkan regions it had stronger founder effect in some lesser or didn't. That's all folks.

    Update: I am reading the topic backward so to not be confused, Aspar you soon saw through the unscientific crap and came on a right track
    Last edited by Garand82; 12-10-2021 at 01:27 AM.

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  16. #1710
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodona View Post
    I wonder that obviously someone claimed 'the Slavs were calling themselves Serbs'. What an absurd nonsense!
    Certainly some serb nationalism (which is very strong under serbs).
    Not all of the Slavs just the Sclaveni that settled in the Western Balkans, the Sukow-Dziedzice group that settled in Eastern Germany and in all likelihood the tribes that lived in Southern Poland the place where the first two came from. That leaves plenty of Slavs that didnt call themselves Srbi like the Proto-Czechs of the Prague culture, the Hrvati who lived south of the Srbi in Slovakia and moved to the Balaton region in Pannonia and Kajkavian Croatia(Croatia proper), the Anti of the Penkovka/Ipotesti–Candesti that settled the Eastern Balkans and Mainland Greece, the East Slavs.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

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