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Thread: The origin of the Slavs

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Well, when assuming that L260 was a major clade in the NW Ukrainian part of the broad "Late Proto-Slavic" homeland and thus was playing a crucial role in spreading the Early Slavic wave westward, there is really nothing surprising in the fact that this clade is most frequent among the Western Slavs and "dominates" in all those regions were the Prague culture is strongly attested, including SE Poland, Bohemia and Southern Lusatia. Why do you exactly think my scenario is contradicted by Y-DNA results?

    BTW, as far as I remember, you seem to believe that L260 expanded from SE Poland, which is just on the other side of the Polish-Ukrainian border. Does this short distance of just a few kilometres away from your hypothetical "L260 epicenter" makes such a huge difference, and if so, why is that?

    As for me, I favour the NW Ukrainian location because of the earliest findings of the Korchak-type pottery and the hypothetical connection with some Western Ukrainian sites suspected of descending from the westernmost Post-Zarubintsy groupings (including the Zubra or Volhynia-Podolye grouping, the more recent Cherepin group and finally the sites commonly attributed to the Early Slavs, like Korchak, Rashkov and Kodyn).



    I don't see why. Even when not counting the very hypothetical role the Late Kiev culture was supposed to play in the genesis of Korchak-Prague (though there certainly are some findings indicating such connections were taking place), the Volhynia-Podolye (Zubra) group is certainly derived from the Pripyat group of the Zarubintsy culture, and deriving the Cherepin group from Zubra is also quite commonly accepted. Also, I hope you don't question the most common view that the Korchak-Prague culture originated in NW Ukraine/SW Belarus from where it expanded to SE Poland (Mogila group) and then further west. So if Korchak-Prague was an Early Slavic culture, then what major Slavic haplogroups did it bring to SE Poland, Bohemia and Lusatia (ie. to those regions where Korchak-Prague was most strongly attested)?. On the other hand, if Korchak-Prague was not Early Slavic, then which non-Slavic haplogroups would you associate with them?



    This can be quite easily explained when accepting the very reasonable assumption that the process of the Proto-Slavic development that lead to the discussed "Late Proto-Slavic" stage was quite complicated (which is of course supported by the very complicated archaeology of this region). This is not only about some specific haplogroups/clades playing the most crucial role in the very early stages of this process (like R1a-L1029 and I2a-Din), while the other clades playing a "minor" role (or being included relatively late). It is simply impossible to imagine that such a relatively large "Late Proto-Slavic" (LPS) population of about 600,000 people included all major Proto-Slavic clades mixed together in equal proportions, so any subgrouping in the North-Eastern (Kolochin) part of the LPS homeland would show exactly the same Y-DNA composition as the corresponding groups in the North-Western (Korchak-Prague) or Southern (Penkovka) group. Even within each of the just mentioned Early Slavic cultures there certainly were some significant local differences regarding the Y-DNA composition, so once these groupings migrated in different directions, those initial differences were contributing to the unequal Y-DNA distribution between particular destination points.




    I guess you are suggesting that most of those "Slavic" clades originated in Poland, so I would really like you to present your favourite scenario in more detail.
    Could you clarify a bit on this? I'm away from all my materials and have to rely on memory I'm afraid. Specifically:
    1."the hypothetical connection with some Western Ukrainian sites suspected of descending from the westernmost Post-Zarubintsy groupings (including the Zubra or Volhynia-Podolye grouping, the more recent Cherepin group"
    2. "the Volhynia-Podolye (Zubra) group is certainly derived from the Pripyat group of the Zarubintsy culture, and deriving the Cherepin group from Zubra is also quite commonly accepted."

    Re 2. The Pripyat group of the Zarubinian culture has been analyzed most explicitly by Maksimov and Pashkovska (esp. the latter who's a specialist on this). They both consider it to be Bastarnian and Pashkova has made some interesting calculations on pottery types. The main components of the "Bastarnian wave" were carriers of the Yastorf and Pomeranian cultures. The pottery is ca. 60% Pomeranian type, 30% Yastorf, and 10% "local" (Milograd I think). It was one of three such "Zarubinian" groups, along with those of the Middle and Upper Dnipro (where the percentages varied somewhat). Classical Zarubinia collapsed in the mid-1rst c. CE. Sticking just to the fate of this Pripyat group, it vacated its territory and very largely moved southward and southwestward, where it mixed with a Przeworsk population. The one interesting point is that this movement actually began some 20 to 30 years before 50CE, at which point it massively accelerated unto completion. Is the P-Z combination + some extras what is called the "Pod.-Vol." group? I've forgotten.===Anyway there is the theory that this group then mixed with incoming Bastarnians from the Lower Dnister and formed the new "Peucini" or "Bastarnae", existed there for centuries, and then, under Gothic pressure, decided to migrate and were accepted into the territory of the Roman Empire by Probus ca. 280.
    Re 1. As to Cherepin. Perhaps I am mixing this up with something else, but I think a Ukrainian archaeologist called Baran some years ago discovered there was a group, which he dated as part of the (then) existing Gothic complex, interesting in that it built its houses very similarly to the manner of the later Slavs of the area... I think Mahomedov accepted this in his synthesis on the Chernyakhiv culture. However some doubts later arose about stratigraphy and evidence mix issues and other archaeologists (I think Schukin was one of them) wondered if the studied ruins represented both an earlier settlement and a 5th c. Slavic one, with all the material being ascribed to the earlier date.

    I tend to agree with Pashkovska about the identity of the Prypiat group. And to my mind the interesting question arises: just who successfully began to push them out long before the collapse of classical Zarubinia, esp. since the land they occupied was most desirable in a period of increasing aridity. But this would be for another time.

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  3. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    Im confused.

    This study seems to show that L1029 in Belarus has the same frequency as in Poland. However, If we accept your idea that L1029 was from Belarus/Ukraine, and then moved into Poland, then we would need to assume that Poland was depopulated (at least parts of it, otherwise L1029's frequency in Poland would be lower due to it merging in with other YDNA groups of the natives). However, if we do that, shouldn't we expect much higher levels of I2a in Poland? Shouldn't Eastern Poland/Belarus be nearly identical in terms of Y-DNA?

    I2a seems to drop in frequency in Poland, but L1029 doesn't?
    Very good question! Apparently, I2a-Din was not very frequent in that L1029-rich L365-rich YP1018-rich (and probably S18681-rich, L1280>FGC19283-rich and YP515-rich) population that migrated west and north-west. Importantly, it is well known that the Korchak-Prague culture in Belarus-Ukraine was displaced by the expanding "East Slavic" Luka Rajkovetska culture, so it seems quite likely that the increased frequency of I2a-Din in today's South Belarus is a result of that subsequent replacement. Since L1029 is still quite frequent in modern Southern Belarus (or at least in some subregions), one can suspect that the original frequency of L1029 in that region was actually much higher.

    BTW, here is the relevant quotation from Peter Heather:
    "Even this much expansion, however, does not explain the dominance of Slavic speaking groups across large areas of previously Baltic speaking regions visible by the tenth century. The spread subsequently of the Luka Raikovetskaia and Volyntsevo systems over and beyond Korchak and Penkovka areas may reflect this, but as we have seen, the story may be much more complicated than the simple linear progression of material cultures might suggest. [...] The spread of the Penkovka, Luka Raikovetskaia and Volyntsevo systems over different parts of the East European Plain really could represent either the initial Slavicization of these territories, or the triumph of one particular group of Slavic-speakers over their peers."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    We can call them whatever you like.
    Some just aren't "pan-Slavic", and did not participate in the Slavic expansion, but are found in Balts and even Permians etc. I believe this is what I have understood Michael and Larry to be saying.



    If you are referring to the ancient baltic coast from the vistula delta to modern Estonia, then in ancient times this area was controlled by the Aestii tribeS ( modern Estonians ), who where the main supplier of baltic amber in trade to the adriatic and black sea areas. This amber has been looked at in great detail ...........read the book, Northern Gold.

    These "estonians " where split into 2 groups - west baltic culture ( known to russian genetics as pert of the flat-bed grave culture )and east baltic culture.

    these 2 groups are purely baltic peoples , with some mixed with southern finns and the western finns known as Kvens.

    of course they would have R1a as well as N and Q and other haplogroup markers .......haplogroups are not restricted to ethnicity.

    I support this russian theory as well as saying that these "estonians" ( aestii) could have prevented any ancient lithuanians having access to the coast , but purely making them be an inland ethnic people. as for the latvians.......I do not known enough about them to make a call.


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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    I am not sure how to take your comment, "Call them whatever you call them." Also, I don't understand this : "They're not some aren't pants Lubbock and did not participate in the Slavik yes no Genesis." Unless these subclades were mixed, i.e., extending over several different ethnic groups, it is important to identify their ethnicity. Are you saying that there was not a Baltic-Slavic language split by the 5th or 6th century?
    When was this split ( 5th or 6th seems late ) and isn't slavic a/the child of baltic language ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    The arrows from the solid green segment are fairly adequate if amendable to a degree, but only were the segment dated ca. 450 AD. Here it is presented as "of the beginning of our era". This looks very much like the old school Brajchevsky view (dating back to the 1950's) which considered both the Zarubynetska-Pzeworska and the Chernyakhivska cultures to have been Slavic.
    can you interpret all the people in the yellow area in the southern coast of the baltic sea?


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  8. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Could you clarify a bit on this? I'm away from all my materials and have to rely on memory I'm afraid. Specifically:
    1."the hypothetical connection with some Western Ukrainian sites suspected of descending from the westernmost Post-Zarubintsy groupings (including the Zubra or Volhynia-Podolye grouping, the more recent Cherepin group"
    2. "the Volhynia-Podolye (Zubra) group is certainly derived from the Pripyat group of the Zarubintsy culture, and deriving the Cherepin group from Zubra is also quite commonly accepted."

    Re 2. The Pripyat group of the Zarubinian culture has been analyzed most explicitly by Maksimov and Pashkovska (esp. the latter who's a specialist on this). They both consider it to be Bastarnian and Pashkova has made some interesting calculations on pottery types. The main components of the "Bastarnian wave" were carriers of the Yastorf and Pomeranian cultures. The pottery is ca. 60% Pomeranian type, 30% Yastorf, and 10% "local" (Milograd I think). It was one of three such "Zarubinian" groups, along with those of the Middle and Upper Dnipro (where the percentages varied somewhat). Classical Zarubinia collapsed in the mid-1rst c. CE. Sticking just to the fate of this Pripyat group, it vacated its territory and very largely moved southward and southwestward, where it mixed with a Przeworsk population. The one interesting point is that this movement actually began some 20 to 30 years before 50CE, at which point it massively accelerated unto completion. Is the P-Z combination + some extras what is called the "Pod.-Vol." group? I've forgotten.===Anyway there is the theory that this group then mixed with incoming Bastarnians from the Lower Dnister and formed the new "Peucini" or "Bastarnae", existed there for centuries, and then, under Gothic pressure, decided to migrate and were accepted into the territory of the Roman Empire by Probus ca. 280.
    Re 1. As to Cherepin. Perhaps I am mixing this up with something else, but I think a Ukrainian archaeologist called Baran some years ago discovered there was a group, which he dated as part of the (then) existing Gothic complex, interesting in that it built its houses very similarly to the manner of the later Slavs of the area... I think Mahomedov accepted this in his synthesis on the Chernyakhiv culture. However some doubts later arose about stratigraphy and evidence mix issues and other archaeologists (I think Schukin was one of them) wondered if the studied ruins represented both an earlier settlement and a 5th c. Slavic one, with all the material being ascribed to the earlier date.

    I tend to agree with Pashkovska about the identity of the Prypiat group. And to my mind the interesting question arises: just who successfully began to push them out long before the collapse of classical Zarubinia, esp. since the land they occupied was most desirable in a period of increasing aridity. But this would be for another time.
    Well, I probably don't know anything that you wouldn't be aware of (regarding the above questions). The one thing I should probably mention is that (IIRC) Terpilovsky considered the Northern (Pripyat-derived) ancestry of V-P much stronger than the Przeworsk influences. Also, it seems to me that it was the Northern (Baltic or pre-Proto-Slavic, ie. non-Bastarnian) influences in all Zarubintsy groupings (including Pripyat) that could have quite strongly contributed to the transformation of Zarubintsy into a mixed pre-Proto-Slavic/Bastarnian groupings, as probably represented by the Late Zarubintsy groupings (Lyutezh, Pochep, etc). I am also suspecting that this was just a first phase of this transformation, probably mediated by the Grini-type influences coming from the North, while the next phase was associated with the emergence of the Kiev culture (which was probably associated with another influx of non-Bastarnian people from the North). If this scenario is correct, this would mean that the quite early separated Western groupings like V-P or Cherepin were "close relatives" of Kiev, which likely facilitated their "re-Slavicization" by those not so numerous Kiev-derived groupings that migrated west, which ultimately resulted in the emergence of the Korchak-Prague culture in the North-Western part of the "Late Proto-Slavic" homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    So far, the majority of the frequencies and phylogenies lean toward a near-Carpathian origin. (You may recall that various clades were at one time named Carpathian-Dalmatian, Volga-Carpathian, etc.) In the case of R-L260, the region of its origin and growth is glaringly obvious.
    I just want to state the obvious, namely that the North-Western Ukraine is a "near-Carpathian" region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    can you interpret all the people in the yellow area in the southern coast of the baltic sea?
    South to North: Prussy (up to the Niemen), Zhmud', Zemgola, Kors' Then across the Dvina: Letgola, Liv, Chud'
    And east of the Prussians: Litva (Lithuanians) along the Niemen. And south of the Lithuanians, the Yatvingians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    When was this split ( 5th or 6th seems late ) and isn't slavic a/the child of baltic language ?
    I am only a novice in regard to the language split. If I understand things as they have been written, my post was in regard to the assertion that some of the R1a subclades which are being discussed in this thread (namely those of L1029) could be considered Baltic. If my memory serves me, I believe there is a post in this thread which referenced the Slavic language moving into parts of Poland, circa the 9th or 10th century. If I understand your post, I am with you. By the 5th or 6th century, let alone the 9th, the Baltic and Slavic languages had split. So , how can certain subclades of R1a be considered Baltic in origin (genetically), unless they had been Slavicised culturally? I don't see these subclades as Baltic is what I am trying to communicate.
    Last edited by leonardo; 12-23-2015 at 06:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    I am only a novice in regard to the language split. If I understand things as they have been written, my post was in regard to the assertion that some of the R1a subclades which are being discussed in this thread (namely those of L1029) could be considered Baltic. If my memory serves me, I believe there is a post in this thread which referenced the Slavic language moving into parts of Poland, circa the 9th or 10th century. If I understand your post, I am with you. By the 5th or 6th century, let alone the 9th, the Baltic and Slavic languages had split. So , how can certain subclades of R1a be considered Baltic in origin (genetically), unless they had been Slavicised culturally? I don't see these subclades as Baltic is what I am trying to communicate.
    They were Slavified culturally, but whether you call them Balts or basal Balto-Slavs is a matter of taste (unless they were East Germanic or Sarmatian speakers, then they should not be called Balts).

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