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Thread: Andronovo/Abashevo/Scythian/Tocharian R1a

  1. #1

    Andronovo/Abashevo/Scythian/Tocharian R1a

    Does anybody know the subclades of R1a these groups would have belonged to? Scythians (along with their brother groups, Sarmatians, Alans and Saka stretched from E. Ukraine/Crimea to The outer edge of the Tarim and Drazungana Basins (which I guess were Tocharian speaking at least as far east as the Kingom ofLoulan)? Was their R1a homoegnous and which clade? If it was indeed Z93+ was it also L342.2+ and did all these Scythians really just dissappear or is their ydna found among Ukranians, Tatars, Bashkirs?

    Abashevo reflects the movement of Indo-Iranians into the forest zone where apparently East Baltic and Uralic speakers existed? So would Abashevo be Z93+, Z280+, N1c1 and I1?

    What about Tocharian R1a?

    Anything else besides R1a present in these groups? Why did Tocharians lack mtdna T, U and X like other IE groups?

  2. #2
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    From a different perspective, various authors have equated the Scythians to various groups. For example, the story/legend, of Ashkenaz.

    Wiki;
    Ashkenaz is often identified with the Scythians and Sarmatians, due in part to the use of the name "Ashkuz" (Saka) for the Scythians in Assyrian Akkadian inscriptions. It may also refer to the Phrygians, who according to Homer's Iliad settled around Lake Ascania. The Gimirri or Gomer had previously been associated the Cimmerians.

    Isaac Asimov has proposed that biblical Ashkenaz (אשכנז) arose from Ashkūz (אשכוז) (= the Scythians) by an old misreading of נ (nun) for ו (vav).

    "According to the Encyclopaedia Biblica, "Ashkenaz must have been one of the migratory peoples which in the time of Esar-haddon, burst upon the northern provinces of Asia Minor, and upon Armenia. One branch of this great migration appears to have reached Lake Urumiyeh; for in the revolt which Esar-haddon chastised (i R 45, col. 2, 27 jf.), the Mannai, who lived to the SW of that lake, sought the help of Ispakai 'of the land of Asguza,' a name (originally perhaps Asgunza) which the scepticism of Dillmann need not hinder us from identifying with Ashkenaz, and from considering as that of a horde from the north, of Indo-Germanic origin, which settled on the south of Lake Urumiyeh"

    "In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories,[1] and, from the 11th century onwards, with northern Europe and Germany.[2] The region of Ashkenaz was centred on the Rhineland and the Palatinate (notably Worms and Speyer), in what is now the westernmost part of Germany. "

    The last quote was written in a journal from the University of Jerusalem in 1936, it is in Hebrew; I have sourced the reference from Wiki, however need someone to interpret the Hebrew.[ Kraus. S, 1932, Hashemot 'ashkenaz usefarad, Tarbiz 3:423-435]

    Also;

    "These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia. The district of Shacusen, Uti Province, reflects their name.[9] In ancient Hebrew texts, the Ashkuz (Ashkenaz) are considered to be a direct offshoot from the Gimirri (Gomer)" This source, I have not been able to verify.

    In common with some of the regions listed above,besides R1a Z93/458 perhaps R1b>R-M269>L23> R-Z2105 which is perhaps old, and extends to a large geographical region, Italy, Balkans, Albania,Armenia, Iranian speaking tribes[ Lurs, Talysh, Ossets], Ukrainians, Poles, and Bashkir, and India.
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-24-2012 at 07:46 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    From a different perspective, various authors have equated the Scythians to various groups. For example, the story/legend, of Ashkenaz.

    Wiki;
    Ashkenaz is often identified with the Scythians and Sarmatians, due in part to the use of the name "Ashkuz" (Saka) for the Scythians in Assyrian Akkadian inscriptions. It may also refer to the Phrygians, who according to Homer's Iliad settled around Lake Ascania. The Gimirri or Gomer had previously been associated the Cimmerians.

    Isaac Asimov has proposed that biblical Ashkenaz (אשכנז) arose from Ashkūz (אשכוז) (= the Scythians) by an old misreading of נ (nun) for ו (vav).

    "According to the Encyclopaedia Biblica, "Ashkenaz must have been one of the migratory peoples which in the time of Esar-haddon, burst upon the northern provinces of Asia Minor, and upon Armenia. One branch of this great migration appears to have reached Lake Urumiyeh; for in the revolt which Esar-haddon chastised (i R 45, col. 2, 27 jf.), the Mannai, who lived to the SW of that lake, sought the help of Ispakai 'of the land of Asguza,' a name (originally perhaps Asgunza) which the scepticism of Dillmann need not hinder us from identifying with Ashkenaz, and from considering as that of a horde from the north, of Indo-Germanic origin, which settled on the south of Lake Urumiyeh"

    "In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories,[1] and, from the 11th century onwards, with northern Europe and Germany.[2] The region of Ashkenaz was centred on the Rhineland and the Palatinate (notably Worms and Speyer), in what is now the westernmost part of Germany. "

    The last quote was written in a journal from the University of Jerusalem in 1936, it is in Hebrew; I have sourced the reference from Wiki, however need someone to interpret the Hebrew.[ Kraus. S, 1932, Hashemot 'ashkenaz usefarad, Tarbiz 3:423-435]

    Also;

    "These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia. The district of Shacusen, Uti Province, reflects their name.[9] In ancient Hebrew texts, the Ashkuz (Ashkenaz) are considered to be a direct offshoot from the Gimirri (Gomer)" This source, I have not been able to verify.

    In common with some of the regions listed above,besides R1a Z93/458 perhaps R1b>R-M269>L23> R-Z2105 which is perhaps old, and extends to a large geographical region, Italy, Balkans, Albania,Armenia, Iranian speaking tribes[ Lurs, Talysh, Ossets], Ukrainians, Poles, and Bashkir, and India.
    While I agree Scythian was a term used to describe various tribes the steepe tribes seem to have been consolidated under one banner consisting of a NE Iranian language and a homogenous culture according to Mallory.

    Armenia really doesn't have any Scythian history. The presence of Scythians in Armenia or West Asia in general is short lived. I'd be surprised if they were anything but R1a with minor amount of R1b, J2a, G or I which they might have picked up through the assimilation of BMAC farmers.

    Can you go into more detail about R-Z2105 and its presence in Iran, Bashkirs and South Asia? I thought the R1b of the Bashkirs indicates a founder effect from a recent European ancestor.

  4. #4
    Silesian, I may translate only the title [Kraus. S, 1932, Hashemot 'ashkenaz usefarad, Tarbiz 3:423-435]: The names Ashkenaz and Sepharad.
    About R-Z2105 we need to know more, also about its subclades L277 and L584, to not saying the L584 subclades, so far found only in a Jew, who matched closely me (but I am L277- and L584- like you) and in part in an Iraqi guy.

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    Scythopolis

    http://www.bibleplaces.com/bethshean.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thedecapolis.png

    "Pompey and the Romans rebuilt Beth Shean in 63 BC and it was renamed Scythopolis ("city of the Scythians;" cf. Col 3:11). It became the capital city of the Decapolis and was the only one on the west side of the Jordan."

    If the Scythians established a colony in Palestine/Jordan, why not in there own territory, Transcaucasia/Armenia?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ScythianGroups.png

    z2105 in Bashkirs=Remnants of Indo-Iranians/Scythians, compare:

    Autosomal connection, West Asian_North European= same branch according to the following:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...ndrogram15.png

    Ysearch [Czech 1180] sample U98VT is most likely Z2105 about 200km from my paternal ancestors in Silesia. I'm enlisted to join the India subcontinent project, scroll down to the R1b section, that is me with a family history from Silesia, check out DYS-464 pattern 14_15_16_18 is very uncommon in the Western European R1b branches, R-M269>L23>L150>L51, however it is found in the Western Asia and Southern Asia R-M269>L23>L150>Z2105
    "India subcontinent DNA Project (incl. India, Pakistan,Bangladesh,Nepal,Bhutan" project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-25-2012 at 01:52 AM.

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    It is not hard to see the admixture. That is why in this project:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    There are between 10-20 different lines of R1b.There is also R1a line, perhaps more, a Q line.

    As well as about 10+/- ydna G lines.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_w..._G_%28Y-DNA%29

    That is admixture of between 20-30 various ydna lines at a minimum from various regions.


    Some of these lines are quite uncommon due to there age. However some of the uncommon lines of different branches(R/Q/G) intersect or are found in the same region, and it generally is to the North of where everyone is putting the origin of R-M269 in Southern Levant. The vast majority of these I would speculate to be converts, some quite possibly Indo-Iranian/Scythians as evident by the mixing of languages.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Tree_v2.0.png

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Shirazi
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-25-2012 at 01:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Who is putting the origin of M-269 in the Souther Levant? Eastern Anatolia, Armenia or West Iran is what I have heard. Also I don't see the connection between R1b and Scythians. Very few South Asians and Central Asians have R1b. Armenia is hardly Scythia. Its not like there is much if any, Scythian ancvcestry there. Scythians probably really only left ancestry in Andronovo/Abashevo land. Everywhere else they were few in numbers, length of empire or were replaced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Very few South Asians and Central Asians have R1b.
    z2105 covers a lot of ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Armenia is hardly Scythia. Its not like there is much if any, Scythian ancvcestry there.
    I don't know what ydna Scythian ancestry was composed of. I can only speculate which possible clade covers the great distances/territories they lived in, and z2105 is a good candidate in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Scythians probably really only left ancestry in Andronovo/Abashevo land. Everywhere else they were few in numbers, length of empire or were replaced.
    Not unlike the distribution pattern of Z2105.
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-26-2012 at 01:29 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    check out DYS-464 pattern 14_15_16_18 is very uncommon in the Western European R1b branches, R-M269>L23>L150>L51, however it is found in the Western Asia and Southern Asia R-M269>L23>L150>Z2105
    "India subcontinent DNA Project (incl. India, Pakistan,Bangladesh,Nepal,Bhutan" project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    The DYS464=14-15-16-18 pattern is typical of what the Polish Project calls the L23EE Type, which is Z2105+. Among those who belong to L23EE, ancestries include Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, and Russia.

    The apparent occurrence of this pattern in Pakistan and India is most intriguing. 195191 of India is Ysearch M3FMX. His nearest neighbors in Ysearch are JZA5D of Iraq and DK6NG of Italy.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 11-26-2012 at 04:25 AM.

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     Silesian (11-26-2012)

  11. #10
    Is that ht-15 or an ht-35 type? What would explain its presence in India? A movement with the Indo-Iranians who I believe were lactose persistent which might have n origin in that eastern R1b type?

    What explains that and R1b-m73 in central asia?

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