the Samara hunter - is he confirmed M73?

[alan]

I have seen this mentioned in passing but somehow I never saw threads on this myself and when I google it I dont get a lot of joy. Can anyone confirm if this was confirmed and by whom and when. A link would be appreciated.

[R.Rocca]

I have seen this mentioned in passing but somehow I never saw threads on this myself and when I google it I dont get a lot of joy. Can anyone confirm if this was confirmed and by whom and when. A link would be appreciated.

First reported by smal here...
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post91529

And then elaborated by Jean here...
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post96946

[Huntergatherer1066]

In the Haak et al. paper they assume M478 and M73 are equivalent, which we know based on FTDNA kit 180669 is not the case. It would be nice to have some NGS tests on the M73+/M478- samples to learn more about them. Even some additional individual M478 tests on the western European cluster of M73 samples would be nice to investigate if they're M478- like 180669. I'm guessing the western European branch of M73 is much rarer than the eastern branches.

[alan]

so not M73 but on a branch close to it rather than close to M269. I think that is interesting. We know M73 SNP is older than this so this is a parallel branch off. So it would appear to me that it is likely that there was Z2103, L23xZ2103xL51, some branch off close to M73, presumably M73 itself nearby. I would also presume M269xL23 lines were in the mix. It certainly supports the idea that P297 was a steppe thing when we have a hunter with a close parallel branch to M73 and we then in the copper age have all this Z2103 and apparently L23xZ2103xL51 too. Now really looks like P297 is a steppe lineage of pre-farming vintage.

What this now makes me wonder is if we have this P297 near-M73 guy in Samara in the late Mesolithic in Samara what is that telling us? We have various estimates for P297 centred around 9000BC plus/minus 1000ys. What is that telling us? What culture specifically was he found in and what are the deeper roots of that culture?

Given its later distribution and apparent inability to spread into non-steppe Europe or SW Asia a position for M73 and closely related P297 lines in the Volga-Ural-Samara sort of region among hunters makes sense. The fact it didnt experience the expansion of other clades suggests it missed the Yamnaya expansion boat.

I have a hunch that Z2103 may have arisen on the middle Don - mostly down to Z2103's links with Yamanaya, Yamnaya's roots in Repin (commences c. 4000bc) and Repin's apparent origin in the middle Don. It could then have spread east with Yamanaya to the Samara, middle Volga etc.

However, it looks like L51 was neither in the Samara or Don on present evidence. So in river terms that makes me look to the Dnieper for L51.

So what links all these places and river valleys? I think it is possible then that P297's first steppe location might have been around Samara/Volga and that M269 or its immediate ancestor spread west when burial traditions apparently ancestral to Sredny Stog burial did the same thing. M73 seems to have stayed at home around Samara. Srendy Stog c. 4500BC occupied the area between the Don and Dnieper with some influence to the Volga but its origins seem to have spread east to west. I can see a possibility that Sredny Stog left L23 on the Don and the Dnieper where it then gave birth to Z2103 and L51 respectively. Z2103 then spread with Repin and Yamnaya from the Don first east then west.

If this is correct - and its still guessology - then this implies a relatively late post-5000BC spread across the steppe from the Samara region for M269 and or L23. If this is true then it puts R1a in the frame for the pre-Sredny Stog cultures in the west of the Euro steppes.

[Generalissimo]

I would've thought that the most obvious and logical implication of this result was that the Samara Yamnaya were migrants to the Samara region from somewhere in the south.

This actually fits with their genome-wide structure (Caucasus-like) and the results from Allentoft et al. (featuring a much more southerly set of Yamnaya samples that are basically identical to the Samara Yamnaya).

So it looks now as if the origins of the Yamnaya, or at least the samples we have, might have been very close to Maikop country. This makes Repin and all other pre-Yamnaya cultures around the Don unknown quantities at this stage.

You don't agree Alan?

[newtoboard]

I would've thought that the most obvious and logical implication of this result was that the Samara Yamnaya were migrants to the Samara region from somewhere in the south.

This actually fits with their genome-wide structure (Caucasus-like) and the results from Allentoft et al. (featuring a much more southerly set of Yamnaya samples that are basically identical to the Samara Yamnaya).

So it looks now as if the origins of the Yamnaya, or at least the samples we have, might have been very close to Maikop country. This makes Repin and all other pre-Yamnaya cultures around the Don unknown quantities at this stage.

You don't agree Alan?

But logically whatever was Repin/Khvalynsk should dominate the Yamnaya horizon. But we have no idea if M73+ is just a small part of the Samara (culture?) or if it dominated it so I wouldn't ay they came from the south.

But M73 is intresting. I wonder where it was hiding until it expanded with Turks. It had to be someplace very remote imo. It is unheard of in an area from Kurdistan to Bangladesh. The PC Steppe/Kazakh steppe/West Siberia/Altai/Mongolia are out since those were important for movements to West Asia, Iran, Central and South Asia. Same goes for West Central Asia (Parthians), most of East Central Asia (Sakas, Pamiris, Tajiks, Pashtuns), the Tarim (Kushans), and South Central Asia (BMAC + Andronovo contact along the Syr Darya).

Also the possibility of Afonotova Gora/Okuneveo being R1b in additon to Afanasievo is interesting too.

Also the Sredny Stog you and Alan are talking about are very different. Who is right? Or was Sredny Stog bigger than thought?

Also I am curious on where the L657 is. I doubt it will show up in Sintashta or Andronovo based on the predictions of parsar and others. Could that BA Turkmenistan sample have been L657+? Did R1a and R1b extend into the Kazakh steppe/West Siberia during the Yamnaya period?

[newtoboard]

Alan's Sredny Stog is very south of the image you posted David. I am confused on which is the real one.

[Generalissimo]

Alan's Sredny Stog is very south of the image you posted David. I am confused on which is the real one.

I don't know. Maybe there's no precise classification of it.

I'm guessing you mean this map?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...ew?usp=sharing

I like it. I think it gels very well with the aDNA results we have.

Early Pit-Grave/Yamnaya are exactly where I'd expect them to be considering their genome-wide and mtDNA ancestry, while the cultures just to the west look ideal as the staging point for the Corded Ware expansion, with a proto-CWC population that was very Yamnaya-like but with more EHG, as described in Haak et al. It looks like they nailed that model.

[parasar]

I would've thought that the most obvious and logical implication of this result was that the Samara Yamnaya were migrants to the Samara region from somewhere in the south.

This actually fits with their genome-wide structure (Caucasus-like) and the results from Allentoft et al. (featuring a much more southerly set of Yamnaya samples that are basically identical to the Samara Yamnaya).

So it looks now as if the origins of the Yamnaya, or at least the samples we have, might have been very close to Maikop country. This makes Repin and all other pre-Yamnaya cultures around the Don unknown quantities at this stage.

...

A southern connection is there no doubt, but a migration south to north from the Caucasus region looks unlikely due to the absence on xR Y types in Yamna.

[Generalissimo]

A southern connection is there no doubt, but a migration south to north from the Caucasus region looks unlikely due to the absence on xR Y types in Yamna.

That's not a persuasive argument.