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Thread: New approach for the R1b (M343) and Subclades project

  1. #1
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    New approach for the R1b (M343) and Subclades project

    For those of you already deep clade tested and in the proper subclade projects, this is not something you need to be concerned with but I want to give everyone an update.

    The “R1b and Subclades” Y DNA project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/ is changing focus a bit.

    The project accepts predicted R1b, R1b1, R1b1a2 (etc.) people, advises them on deeper testing and helps members get placed into the proper subclade projects. R1b (R-M343) is too big and complex to handle with one set of project administrators so these subclade projects are essential. Effectively, R1b and Subclades is a “gateway” to these subclade projects, such as R1b-U106, R1b-P312, R1b-U152, R1b Asterisk, etc.

    Please let R1b people who have not deep clade tested know about this project and ask them to read the updated "About This Group" Background, Goals and Results pages. Additional resources and help from project administrators can be found at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

    We'll encourage them to do deeper testing and them send them to the appropriate major subclade projects or wherever they belong.

    Mike W

  2. #2
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    I just joined my grandfather to this project. He is kit 259187, sitting on page 9 in the ungrouped section, Joseph Griffith b. 1875 MO d.1904 KY. Family lore says Welsh. I'm at a loss of what to do next, nothing seems to be jumping out at me. Here's what I wrote at FTDNA:

    My grandpa's full results came in last night and it looks like it's going to be a challenge. Cullen's subclade predictor says:

    Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
    R1b-Leinster =>61% R1b =>14% R1b-North/South 2 =>9% R1b-S26 =>5% R1b-North/South 1 =>3% R1b-S.Irish =>2% R1b-E.Europe =>2% R1b-S28 =>2%

    R1b-L371 appears unlikely but I still think ancestral origins shows a preference for Wales:
    At 25 markers:
    England 2 18784 < 0.1 %
    Scotland 1 9058 < 0.1 %
    United Kingdom 1 6891 < 0.1 %
    United States 1 2006 < 0.1 %
    Wales 4 1472 0.3%

    At 67 markers:
    England 1 16029 < 0.1 %
    Scotland 1 8055 < 0.1 %
    United States 1 1764 0.1%
    Wales 2 1274 0.2%

    Right? His highest percentages, though themselves tiny, are with Wales. I've got him in 2 projects so far:
    Griffi(th)(n)(s)(ng)
    R1b and Subclades

    I know he's L-21 from 23andme, I might try and join him to L-21 Plus and see if anyone looks close. That was my first clue my husband would be L-226, DYS459 8-9 and DYS464 13-13-15-17 stood out like sore thumbs. Looking at the email that I got about Scots Modal, the first few markers look like a "no." He's got 7 three and four step matches - none of which are assigned a haplogroup at 67 markers! My Griffith perfect match disappeared but he was only tested to 12 markers. I still think he's significant because he shared my grandpa's apparently unusual DYS398ii***=32.
    My grandpa is 85 and not in the best of health. I'd really love to solve this mystery for him so any help would be appreciated.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little bit View Post
    I just joined my grandfather to this project. He is kit 259187, sitting on page 9 in the ungrouped section, Joseph Griffith b. 1875 MO d.1904 KY. Family lore says Welsh. I'm at a loss of what to do next, nothing seems to be jumping out at me. Here's what I wrote at FTDNA:



    My grandpa is 85 and not in the best of health. I'd really love to solve this mystery for him so any help would be appreciated.
    Hi Littlebit,

    I took a look at your grandpa's haplotype and I did not see a close haplotype match. So I am going to recomment the Geno2.0 test to place him in a L21 subclade. He is an outlier on several different haplogroups.

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  4. #4
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    Ugh, I was afraid that was going to be the answer. Thanks for checking

    Btw, what is the theory of these outliers? Y lineages in the process of going extinct? Populations that broke off and remained separated from the main group for a period of time?
    Last edited by Little bit; 12-05-2012 at 07:51 PM.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

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    Wow, I just about killed myself on this one. A month or two ago I took a pass at streamlining the R1b project subgroupings to mirror the large haplogroup projects, like x297, ht35new, P312, L21, U152 and U106 with the advice to join those projects. I also have the power to add people into those "sub" projects and I've done so (including U198 and L1). If any one sees anyone who need needs to be in one of these large projects let me know. I'm not going all the way down to the many sub-sub projects like DF49*, M222, L21, and on and on. There's just too many and that should be handled at the next step lower anyway.

    What's just about killed me is going through the very large "ungrouped" not SNP tested people in the project. I've cleared "ungrouped" finally so I'll no what to look at when a new guy comes in. I've created to large subgroups of not SNP tested people. One is for those that have 67 STRs and one is for those who don't with the recommendation to go to 67 or more STRs. I'm just trying to move the ball forward with these people.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Next, I'll be able to send out a broad to all of the less than 67 STR folks to encourage them to upgrade with a "carrot".

    The carrot is if they are at 67 STRs I'll included them in a file of 67 STR (only) R1b SNP tested people. That way they are or their project administrators can simply select their haplotype on their row in the spreadsheet and have GD's calculated to all other people in the file. You can easily sort by GD next or use the macro button I've set up for that. The result lets you see who you are close to, of those which have nice slow STR matches with you and what SNPs they've already tested for. Of course, this would be useful for people who are interested in "rifle shot" attempts to find a terminal SNP.

    I'm still going to push Geno 2 as a good coverage option for the "shotgun" approach.

    I figure if they are really interested in fullgenomes they don't need me to tell them about it.

    BTW, I periodically copy the large unawashed 67 STR people into a spreadsheet where I look to see if anyone matches my favorite paternal lineage STR signatures, 11-13, N-S and Irish Sea. Never know who you'll find out there.

    Anyway, if you have R1b1a2 predicted people and they are interested in more testing, send them over to the R1b gateway project.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-20-2013 at 04:41 AM.

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  7. #6
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    Geno 2.0 just said i am "Germanic Italo Celtic" R1b1a2a1a L11 they said P310 another name for L11. I know they test for "Italo Gaulish" R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152, "Celtic"(mainly British and Irish Celtic) R1b1a2a1a2c L21, and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21. So i am X for all of those i know that R1b1a2a1a L11* is very rare. On this haplogroup predictor click here everytime it said i am most likley R1b North South which i learned was later updated to be apart of Celtic(Mainly CeltIberian and Gaulish) R1b1a2a1a2c Df27. I could also possible be the very rare Germanic branch under R1b1a2a1a2 S116 which are R1b1a2a1a2d L238 and R1b1a2a1a2e Df19.

    My paternal line all i know goes back to either Scotland or England. So to have R1b1a2a1a2a Df27, R1b1a2a1a2d L238, R1b1a2a1a2e Df19 are just as unlikely as having R1b1a2a1a L11* or R1b1a2a1a2 S116*. So all i know is i have a very rare subclade. Can anyone help.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Geno 2.0 just said i am "Germanic Italo Celtic" R1b1a2a1a L11 they said P310 another name for L11. I know they test for "Italo Gaulish" R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152, "Celtic"(mainly British and Irish Celtic) R1b1a2a1a2c L21, and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21. So i am X for all of those i know that R1b1a2a1a L11* is very rare. On this haplogroup predictor click here everytime it said i am most likley R1b North South which i learned was later updated to be apart of Celtic(Mainly CeltIberian and Gaulish) R1b1a2a1a2c Df27. I could also possible be the very rare Germanic branch under R1b1a2a1a2 S116 which are R1b1a2a1a2d L238 and R1b1a2a1a2e Df19.

    My paternal line all i know goes back to either Scotland or England. So to have R1b1a2a1a2a Df27, R1b1a2a1a2d L238, R1b1a2a1a2e Df19 are just as unlikely as having R1b1a2a1a L11* or R1b1a2a1a2 S116*. So all i know is i have a very rare subclade. Can anyone help.
    Geno 2.0's R-P310 predictions tend to be dodgy because of no-calls and the fact they are operating with FTDNA's out-of-date haplotree. If you send me a copy of your raw data file, I can look at your no-calls in particular and see what the possibilities might be. See:
    http://daver.info/geno/

    Regards,
    david

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Geno 2.0 just said i am "Germanic Italo Celtic" R1b1a2a1a L11 they said P310 another name for L11....
    So all i know is i have a very rare subclade. Can anyone help.
    I wouldn't pay too much attention to those ethnicities you are seeing, I guess in the Geno 2.0 reports. I'm kind of surprised they do that. L11 is older than the break up of those language sets and some weren't really discernible for some time, which gets to be quite a discussion in itself. You'll probably like the P312=Celtic/U106=Germanic thread under R1b General if you are interested in that.

    P310 and P311 are on the same branch as L11, so yes, we consider them to be phylogenetically equivalent.

    Unfortunately, Geno 2 doesn't test for P312 and DF27 although it does test for a number of SNPs downstream of those. Let's see what David finds. You know never know.

    Do you have kit # you can share and a project you are in? I'll look to see if there are any common off-modal (STR signature) patterns.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-20-2013 at 04:50 AM.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I wouldn't pay too much attention to those ethnicities you are seeing, I guess in the Geno 2.0 reports. I'm kind of surprised they do that. L11 is older than the break up of those language sets and some weren't really discernible for some time, which gets to be quite a discussion in itself. You'll probably like the P312=Celtic/U106=Germanic thread under R1b General if you are interested in that.

    P310 and P311 are on the same branch as L11, so yes, we consider them to be phylogenetically equivalent.

    Unfortunately, Geno 2 doesn't test for P312 and DF27 although it does test for a number of SNPs downstream of those. Let's see what David finds. You know never know.

    Do you have kit # you can share and a project you are in? I'll look to see if there are any common off-modal (STR signature) patterns.
    Geno 2.0 does not make up those ethnicity names i did. U can look at FTDNA R1b page click here. THey agree with what i am saying. Also look at a thread i made on another website called Germanic Italo Celts I am going to edit it a ton there are alot of mistakes and make one for this website.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    U can look at FTDNA R1b page click here. THey agree with what i am saying.
    LOL, I suspect Mike is well acquainted with that page...

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