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Thread: Irish DNA Atlas, Preliminary Results

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    That's not an Irish cluster. It looks like they didn't remove a few relatives IMO.
    Possibly, but those few individuals look different at K=7 too. A full Irish cluster would likely form at K=9 or K=10 in this run, they had another which included Bedouins and Yemenites and then Irish didn't do anything special at K=8.

    Heber mentioned only some European populations in the opening post though, if those were the only ones in the run an Irish cluster should appear pretty quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Possibly, but those few individuals look different at K=7 too. A full Irish cluster would likely form at K=9 or K=10 in this run, they had another which included Bedouins and Yemenites and then Irish didn't do anything special at K=8.

    Heber mentioned only some European populations in the opening post though, if those were the only ones in the run an Irish cluster should appear pretty quickly.
    Have a look at the Druze. Many of them show high levels of IBD/IBS sharing due to endogamy. They're behaving in a similar way in this analysis. Western Europeans shouldn't behave in this way.

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    Hey, who really cares? Most people are interested in establishing their pedigree. That is rather more recent than stone age origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    They're not using Admixture, but it's basically as if they went up to a K20 where there was a more specific Irish component. So what they're doing is similar to the 23andMe AC, and focusing on more recent ancestry, rather than subtle differences in the levels of more widely spread components to recognize Irish people.
    Thanks for reply. I think I will go away and read about K7, K8 or whatever they are as I am still struggling to understand this Atlantic component thing.

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     Jessie (08-06-2015)

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    Ed Gilbert is the analytics person on the IDA team and he will present at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015 in October.
    Hopefully he will have more detail on PCA and admixture analysis and the WE Seaboard (Atlantic) component.
    http://ggi2013.blogspot.co.uk/
    Professor Dan Bradley will also present at that conference. His ancient DNA lab is now up and running an I believe he has Irish samples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Their Irish sample is large and their complete dataset most likely does not have the same populations used to make Eurogenes calculators. Both of these factors will make it easier for an Irish modal component to form.

    In the run below (from Paschou et al. 2014) you can see that some Irish individuals are already getting their own light green component at K=8.

    Another factor may be the precise location of modern Irish samples used by different studies. For instance, someone from the east of Ireland (Ulster and Leinster) is likely to have more historical English, Viking and Norman admixture whereas someone with an Irish surname from the Gaeltacht areas in the west is more likely to have native Irish ancestry?
    Last edited by avalon; 08-06-2015 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    Another factor may be the precise location of modern Irish samples used by different studies. For instance, someone from the east of Ireland (Ulster and Leinster) is likely to have more historical English, Viking and Norman admixture whereas someone with an Irish surname from the Gaeltacht areas in the west is more likely to have native Irish ancestry?
    You'd be surprised there are plenty of Gaelgeoir's with Cambro-Norman names, for example out in Conamara ye find plenty of Breathnach's (Walsh) which as surnames go is specifically linked to Cambro-Norman's. -- even the infamous Peig Sayers (if you were a student of certain generation) had an english surname, and she was from the Blaskett's in West Kerry.

    What I would say is that any "Gaelic Irish" component is probably found in all Irish people the issue of course is gonna be the percentage distribution across various geographic areas. In general at least 75-80% of Irish surnames are of Irish language origin, bulk of remaining are Cambro-Norman with the more "english surname" types generally dating to the "New English" of Tudor conquest period onwards ("New" here often a synonym for Protestant). What's evident is that Irish was still found as home language in every county in Ireland in late 18th century, even in places like Wexford which had it's own distinct "dialect" of Middle English called Yola, you can find accounts of Irish speakers, such as during the 1798 rebellion.

    I've read accounts from early 19th century that you only had to go 15miles south of Dublin city center to find areas in Dublin mountains that were still Irish speaking.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Have a look at the Druze. Many of them show high levels of IBD/IBS sharing due to endogamy. They're behaving in a similar way in this analysis. Western Europeans shouldn't behave in this way.
    If there are exceptions they should be found in Ireland where some subisolates may remain. Orcadians show the endogamy too, in Finestructure and 23andMe's PCA where they get their own very distinct dimension. My main point is that an Irish-centric component shouldn't be too hard to form at early K's (before we get to 15) if there are enough Irish samples and the total dataset doesn't contain too many more distinct populations.

    Let's imagine the run below dropped the Orcadians and increased the number of Irish samples to match the Orcadians. The NW European component would quite likely center in Ireland if that was the case, and then someone could name it "Atlantic".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Their Irish sample is large and their complete dataset most likely does not have the same populations used to make Eurogenes calculators. Both of these factors will make it easier for an Irish modal component to form.

    In the run below (from Paschou et al. 2014) you can see that some Irish individuals are already getting their own light green component at K=8.

    I do not claim to completely understand this graph. However k=8 appears to indicate a link between Ireland and Druze.
    It is interesting that in a recent paper John Koch highlighted the link between Phoneticians and Celtic in the Atlantic zone suggesting that the arrival of the Phoenicians in the West gradually replaced the Proto Celtic networks in Tartessos.

    Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

    https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Ph...d_Proto-Celtic

    http://www.celticstudiescongress.org...congress/iccs/
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  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    I do not claim to completely understand this graph. However k=8 appears to indicate a link between Ireland and Druze.
    It is interesting that in a recent paper John Koch highlighted the link between Phoneticians and Celtic in the Atlantic zone suggesting that the arrival of the Phoenicians in the West gradually replaced the Proto Celtic networks in Tartessos.

    Phoenicians in the West and the Break-up of the Atlantic Bronze Age and Proto-Celtic

    https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Ph...d_Proto-Celtic

    http://www.celticstudiescongress.org...congress/iccs/
    I don't think that shows a link between the Irish and Druze. Looking at that K8 graph they look very different which would be expected.

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