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Thread: 19 Subclades and Counting - L2 subclades and their modal values

  1. #1
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    19 Subclades and Counting - L2 subclades and their modal values

    As many of you are now aware, we are up to a whopping 19 known subclades directly below L2 (see U152 Project Tree). Two separately published studies have highlighted L2 as one of the European male lineages with the highest branching. Perhaps the first "Mr. L2" was the Charlemagne of the Bronze Age, but that is all for ancient DNA to figure out. One thing is clear however...the expansion of L2 was so rapid and so successful, that it is nearly impossible to guarantee an SNP subclade based on haplogroup signatures only. Certainly the new R1b Backbone test will help some, but there are some STRs that may help as well, even though none are of 100% certainty. I thought I'd start this thread to discuss some of those that I know of off the top of my head. Perhaps others can add to it. They are as follows:

    L2 Subclade Off Modal STR Value
    Z49: DYS456 = 16
    Z367: DYS460 = 10
    DF90: DYS413a/b = 21-23
    FGC10516: DYS442 = 11
    FGC13620: DYS385b = 15, DYS389i=14
    FGC22501: DYS438 = 13
    L199: DYS385a= 10
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 08-06-2015 at 01:32 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    L2 Subclade Off Modal STR Value
    Z367: DYS460 = 10
    FGC10516: DYS442 = 11
    FGC22501: DYS438 = 13
    DF90: DYS413a/b = 21-23
    FGC13620: DYS385 = 11-15, DYS389i=14
    How do you classify the cluster that has both DYS442=11 and DYS438=13 ? (e.g., kits 61501 and 225559)

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    Rich,

    19 subclades is awesome compared to where we were just a couple of years ago!!!!

    I was very excited to hear FGC22501 was included in the new Backbone test only to realize it will likely be an unstable marker due to its location in the X area of the Y.
    As you stated FGC22501: DYS438 = 13 seems to be true for all who have tested positive so far and certainly is a place to start. Those include WHEATON, DOOTZ, KIDD, TRIPP, and WHIFFING.

    If the testing turns up more L2's its a good thing and even if FGC22501 is unstable perhaps if those who test positive for L2 are negative for all the other branches---it will be helpful for us in FGC22501 world.

    FGC22500 is available at YSEQ and the following were positive for it WHEATON, TRIPP, HG01431, HG02253
    FGC22538 is available at YSEQ and the following were positive for it WHEATON, TRIPP, DOOTZ, & KIDD

    Kelly

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    How do you classify the cluster that has both DYS442=11 and DYS438=13 ? (e.g., kits 61501 and 225559)
    I didn't see kit 61501, but I did add L199, as they all have DYS385a= 10
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Compared to L2 as a whole, Z49 is more likely to have these off modal values:

    DYS456: L2 = 15. Z49 = 16.
    DYS650: L2 = 19. Z49 = 18.

    For what it's worth I have the L2 values rather than the Z49 values for above 2 STRs. And the off modal markers for Z49 are by no means the vast majority

    In other words Z49 and L2 are too much alike at the modal level to really distinguish them.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-06-2015 at 02:06 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Compared to L2 as a whole, Z49 is more likely to have these off modal values:

    DYS456: L2 = 15. Z49 = 16.
    DYS650: L2 = 19. Z49 = 18.
    Our cluster in Z49>S8183>FGC20812> FGC31474> Y11179 et al has DYS456=16 but DYS650=20.

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    In Europe it looks like DF27, DF13 and L2 were all the subject of major population expansions.
    Do you think this is a chance event, or the same mechanism drove all these groups to expand? Are there any clues from the relative dates of MRCA?

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    The number of STRs and biases in the chosen order by FTDNA up to 111 always interested me.

    Are the Haplogroup predictions that FTDNA makes based on just the first 11? Usually it just determines if you are R-M269.

    YFull now has a STR list that goes up to 491 which you can compare with those paying $50 to submit their BAM file and joining the U142 group which current has 90 members, more than half L2. Typically around 400 STR can be compared with others, though there is a variation.

    Is there anything to be learned now that so many L2's have BIG Y Data to compare some of these other STRs?

    My impression was STRs 68-111 have not been particularly useful to L2, though I heard people in other Haplogroups sometime gain "matches" by going to 111.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbarry6899 View Post
    Our cluster in Z49>S8183>FGC20812> FGC31474> Y11179 et al has DYS456=16 but DYS650=20.
    You are proving my point...it's tough to distinguish Z49 from L2 at 111 markers.

    I will take a look at the yfull strs to see if anything stands out in these markers between Z49 and L2.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    ...I will take a look at the yfull strs to see if anything stands out in these markers between Z49 and L2.
    I compared yfull STRs for Z49 and U152 overall, and couldn't find one that would have been much use in distinguishing between the two.

    So maybe the answer is: If your STRs are close to the L2 modals then test for Z49.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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