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Thread: Chekunova 2014: N1c and R1a samples of Proto-East-Balts (?)

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    Chekunova 2014: N1c and R1a samples of Proto-East-Balts (?)

    As for the original homeland of Proto-East-Balts (I will simply call them East Balts below):

    According to Russian studies of linguistics, toponymy (including hydronymy) and archaeology, such as these:

    - Трубачев О. Н., Топоров В. Н., Лингвистический анализ гидронимов Верхнего Поднепровья
    - Седов В.В., Происхождение и ранная истрия Славян
    - Седов В. В., Славяние верхнево Поднепровья и Подвинья
    - Бернштейн С. Б., Очерк сравнительной граматики славянских языков
    - Третьяков П. Н., Памятники зарубинецкой культуры

    The Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

    That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following four cultures:

    - Stroked-pottery culture
    - Dnieper-Dvina culture
    - Yukhnov culture
    - Upper Oka culture

    Areas occupied by those Iron Age cultures, contained archaeological sites (both Iron Age and older) described in these papers:

    Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

    Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed

    In the latter paper we have results of aDNA research, in Table 3. on p. 294 we have 6 samples:

    For these samples mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups were established (but only superficially, no details about subclades are given):

    1) The oldest of these samples is from the turns of the 5th and 4th millennia BC (I bet that this R1a didn't belong to Indo-European branch M198/M417, but it was some more archaic subclade, similar to Karelian R1a dated 5500-5000 BC, or to modern R1a kit of Mr Szpakowski, an ethnic Pole from Belarus):

    Sample A3 - site Serteya VIII - dated to ca. 4000 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H

    2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

    Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2
    Sample A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    3) Two youngest samples (800-400 BC) are Iron Age, part of the network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone. R1a (A4) was inside the hillfort, where warrios and craftsmen lived (Dolukhanov et al., p. 187), while N1c (A5) was in "Devichi gory" burial (long barrow/kurgan?) near the lake:

    Sample A4 - Anashkino hillfort - dated to ca. 800-400 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    There is lack of high-resolution data on subclades, but R1a1 and N1c in proportion 1:1 are also today typical haplogroups of East Balts.

    Map showing these sites (I couldn't locate "Devichi gory" burial ground, but it was somewhere near the Zhizhitskoye Lake):

    http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/



    I think, that R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture and Anashkino hillfort was of Satem IE origin, while N1c was from Non-Indo-European (Old European or Finnic?) population. So East Balts were a mix of R1a and N1c already when living in forests of North-West Russia, before settling at the Sea.

    Was ethnogenesis of East Baslts about mixing of Satem IEs (Globular Amphora or/and Corded Ware) with people of Zhizhitskaya culture?

    Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture

    Population of Iron Age cultures of that area (like those from Anashkino hillfort and "Devichi gory") buried their dead in long barrows (long kurgans).

    Here is a map showing the area occupied by Zhizhitskaya culture - area number 7 in this map:

    This area (No 7) was being penetrated (areas 2 and 16) by people of the Globular Amphora culture (area 1):

    http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/



    Legend to the map:



    Lake Zhizhitskoye - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Zhizhitskoye
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-20-2015 at 12:31 AM.

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    I am not sure about East Balts and Zhizhitsksya. Since there were many different Baltic folks in that area including Balts that became substrate to FU. But obviously somewhere in that cocktail (map with cultures) area my ancestors built their hillforts.

    Edit:
    It also becomes possible that age of N1c1 is very underrated. This indeed could be Baltic N1c, but then it should be as min L550 (current age estimate 2800 years, so 800 BC). And maybe L550+ in FU populations is re-Finnified L550
    Last edited by parastais; 08-20-2015 at 06:04 AM.

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    The L550+ , L1025+ within N1c1 is specific to the Balts and nearby Slavs. If it was Uralic one would expect to find it among Uralic speakers. I also remember seeing a sample of East Pussian Germans who had N1c1 around 30%. So ethnogenesis doesn't seem to differ between east and west Balts based on N1c1 marker. Also Lithuanians have a share amount of west Baltic substrate. Some even argued that Curonians could have been western Balts originally. There were also a migration from the west into the Baltic. My guessing is west Balts in east Prussia (no longer relevant as the population is replaced), Lithuania, Latvia and the surrounding areas form a genetic continuum who have IE European and paleo-European (pre-IE) ancestry. Obviously, Latvians have some FU ancestry. But Livs could have been linguistic shifters themselves .
    Last edited by Volat; 08-20-2015 at 06:31 AM.

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    The N1c1 of Balts is quite strictly L550+, L1025+ and N-M2783+. The upstream L550 and L1025 clades appear in Finland and Scandinavia, perhaps Estonia as well, but not in Lithuania or Belarus and given the lack of diversity in the latter, probably never were Baltic.


    The Baltic N1c1 cluster as well as other non-Baltic L550 clades and more Finnic CTS9976-clade have their common VL29+ ancestor dated to 3500 years ago. The location of this ancestral branch back then is unknown, but northern Russia seems most likely as Pinega is the only place where branches from between L1026 and VL29 have been found (Karmin et al. 2015).

    Going by YFull's dating, the 800 BC N1c1 might be a Balt-specific ancestor clade, but the 2500 BC one is not and it's too old to be a VL29 ancestor as well - if it is ancestral to modern N1c1 it's more likely ancestral to all N1c1-L1026 clades from Khanties to Balts to Scandinavians.

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1026/
    Last edited by Shaikorth; 08-20-2015 at 07:58 AM.

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    At some point m2783+ got injected into Balts.

    If age estimates are really off, it could be Zhizhitskaya. Or before coming to Zhi. Since South - North direction makes more sense. Meaning I doubt Zhi folk was direct major ancestors of modern Latvians, even less so Lithuanians. But same N could spread to Zhi and to Let place (wherever that was).

    If not, then it happened much later and Zhi folk were/became proto-Uralics.

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    The age estimates for mutation change every 3-4 years. I doubt the accuracy of N1c1 mutation until deep clade testing is done on N1c1 to confirm it was up the tree of VL29+. By the time N1c1 folks reached eastern Baltic they absorbed much of the genes of people lived between Siberia-Ural-east Baltic.
    Last edited by Volat; 08-20-2015 at 11:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    The age estimates for mutation change every 3-4 years. I doubt the accuracy of N1c1 mutation until deep clade testing is done on N1c1 to confirm it was up the tree of VL29+. By the time N1c1 folks reached eastern Baltic they absorbed much of the genes of people lived between Siberia-Ural-east Baltic.
    This is interesting. If they arrived before IE, then all they could absorb would be EHG to the North and maybe so called teal to the South. Which would make them eventually... Yamna looking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for the original homeland of Proto-East-Balts (I will simply call them East Balts below):

    According to Russian studies of linguistics, toponymy (including hydronymy) and archaeology, such as these:

    - Трубачев О. Н., Топоров В. Н., Лингвистический анализ гидронимов Верхнего Поднепровья
    - Седов В.В., Происхождение и ранная истрия Славян
    - Седов В. В., Славяние верхнево Поднепровья и Подвинья
    - Бернштейн С. Б., Очерк сравнительной граматики славянских языков
    - Третьяков П. Н., Памятники зарубинецкой культуры

    The Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

    That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following four cultures:

    - Stroked-pottery culture
    - Dnieper-Dvina culture
    - Yukhnov culture
    - Upper Oka culture

    Areas occupied by those Iron Age cultures, contained archaeological sites (both Iron Age and older) described in these papers:

    Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

    Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed

    In the latter paper we have results of aDNA research, in Table 3. on p. 294 we have 6 samples:

    For these samples mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups were established (but only superficially, no details about subclades are given):

    1) The oldest of these samples is from the turns of the 5th and 4th millennia BC (I bet that this R1a didn't belong to Indo-European branch M198/M417, but it was some more archaic subclade, similar to Karelian R1a dated 5500-5000 BC, or to modern R1a kit of Mr Szpakowski, an ethnic Pole from Belarus):

    Sample A3 - site Serteya VIII - dated to ca. 4000 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H

    2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

    Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2
    Sample A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    3) Two youngest samples (800-400 BC) are Iron Age, part of the network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone. R1a (A4) was inside the hillfort, where warrios and craftsmen lived (Dolukhanov et al., p. 187), while N1c (A5) was in "Devichi gory" burial (long barrow/kurgan?) near the lake:

    Sample A4 - Anashkino hillfort - dated to ca. 800-400 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    There is lack of high-resolution data on subclades, but R1a1 and N1c in proportion 1:1 are also today typical haplogroups of East Balts.

    Map showing these sites (I couldn't locate "Devichi gory" burial ground, but it was somewhere near the Zhizhitskoye Lake):

    http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/



    I think, that R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture and Anashkino hillfort was of Satem IE origin, while N1c was from Non-Indo-European (Old European or Finnic?) population. So East Balts were a mix of R1a and N1c already when living in forests of North-West Russia, before settling at the Sea.

    Was ethnogenesis of East Baslts about mixing of Satem IEs (Globular Amphora or/and Corded Ware) with people of Zhizhitskaya culture?

    Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture

    Population of Iron Age cultures of that area (like those from Anashkino hillfort and "Devichi gory") buried their dead in long barrows (long kurgans).

    Here is a map showing the area occupied by Zhizhitskaya culture - area number 7 in this map:

    This area (No 7) was being penetrated (areas 2 and 16) by people of the Globular Amphora culture (area 1):

    http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/



    Legend to the map:



    Lake Zhizhitskoye - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Zhizhitskoye
    The Milograd culture has the same outlook as the above mentioned. It too, according to such definition, should be considered "Baltic", or at least, proto- Balto-Slavic.

    Also, Shchukin tentatively dated the arrival of Baltic language actually to this Iron Age cultures, rather than preceding Bronze Age cultures. .
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-20-2015 at 12:47 PM.

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    Btw, I cant find a good comprehensive info/ article on (proto) Baltic loanwords into Finnic or Uralic. Any suggestions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat
    . I also remember seeing a sample of East Pussian Germans who had N1c1 around 30%.
    East Prussia - below I list 82 samples of Y-DNA of most distant ancestors from Family Tree DNA :

    R1a - 36 (ca. 44%)
    N - 20 (ca. 24%)
    R1b - 12 (ca. 15%)
    I - 10 (ca. 12%)
    J, E, G, T - 1 each


    These samples are mainly from German and Polish projects (here I rather didn't miss anyone, because I checked carefully):

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polish/dna-results
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/

    And also from East Prussia, West Prussia and Pomerania projects (here I could miss someone, I didn't have so much time):

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ia/dna-results
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ny/dna-results
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...rn/dna-results

    I included samples from original Prussia (east of Pomerelia, north of Mazovia; Kulmerland & Suwalki Governorate not included):

    Haplogroup R1a - 36:

    kit 145992 Martin Kiehl born 1760 Stobbendorf R-M458, R-M512
    kit 165792 Johann Michael Sommerfeld b. 1750 Tujsk R-Z280, R-L365
    kit N2864 Michael Flatau b. 1800 Stary Dzierzgoń (Alt Christburg) R-M417, R-M512
    kit 275076 Georg Gottlieb Gutt b. 1729 Brodnica R-Z280, R-CTS3402
    kit 137403 Felyx Pruhs b. 1826 Bratjan R-M198, R-M417
    kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern b. Miłakowo, d. 1717 Stockholm R-Z280, R-CTS456
    kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski b. 1824 Różnowo (Rosenau) R-Z280, R-M512
    kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, 1844-1921, Rogajny (Rogonnen), R-M458, L260
    kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek b. 1853 Szczytno (Ortelsburg) R-Z280, R-L365
    kit 175710 George Glass 1810-1890 Babięty R-M417, R-Z280
    kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis b. 1822 Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg) R-Z280, R-CTS456
    kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke b. 1853 Kalwagi (Kaltwangen) R-M458, R-L260
    kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke b. 1883 Buddern (Budry) R-Z280, R-CTS1211
    kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth 1702-1778, Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo) R-Z280, R-Z92
    kit 153224 Leopold Lau 1867-1931 Compehnen R-Z283
    kit 200664 Simon Netke b. 1686 Koenigsberg R-Z280, R-M512
    kit 85285 Fred Lichtenstein b. 1870 Koenigsberg R-Z280, R-L366
    kit E4464 Carl Labinsky b. 1840 Trempen (Novostroyevo) R-Z280, R-M417
    kit 275090 Martin Kurschus b. Klaipeda (Memel) R1a-M512
    kit E10941 Jablonski b. Koenigsberg R1a-M198
    kit N46232 Christian Nikel b. Zabrowo 1780 R1a-CTS10893
    kit B14462 Karl August Rosenbaum b. 1830 Mamonovo R-M512, R-L1029
    kit 316853 August Czeranna b. 1864 Gross Schoendamerau R-Z283
    kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki b. 1860 Sensburg (Mrągowo), R-Z280, R-CTS3402
    kit E6115 Klaus b. 1935 Königsberg R-M512
    kit 200664 Simon Netke 1686 -1735 Königsberg , R-Z283
    kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, b. 1750, Bartoszyce (Bartenstein), R-M198, R-M512
    kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha ca. 1800-1866, Sołdany, R-L1280, R-Z280
    kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, 1769, Łapinóż, East Prussia, R-CTS456
    kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, b. 1830, Marienwerder (Kwidzyń), R-L1029
    kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, 1858-1941, Goczałki, R-Z283
    kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, Prioma, R-Z283
    kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, 1738-1826, Szypułki-Zaskórki, R-M417, R-Z283
    kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski b. 1780, Kuty (Kutten), R-Z280, R-Z92
    kit 145455 Scheffrahn b. Kętrzyn (Rastenburg) R-M417
    kit N43077 Panemune, East Prussia (Sovetsk, Russia), R-Z280, R-Z92

    Haplogroup N - 20:

    kit 217892 Johann Groening b. 1800 Krzewiny (Horsterbusch) N-L731
    kit E13080 Joannes Reihs b. 1800 Bisztynek (Bischofstein), N-L550, N-L1025
    kit E9638 August Darge b. 1870 Bartoszyce, N-L550, L1025+, N-M231+, N-M178
    kit 202401 Jan Łozowski b. 1850 Lötzen (Giżycko) N-L550, N-L551, L1025
    kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher b. 1729 Schoenfeld N-L550, N-M232
    kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis b. 1745 Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), N-L550
    kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns b. 1715 Mosteiten, K-M9, N-L550, L1025+
    kit 142919 Wilhelm Edward Spangehl b. 1819 Ragnit N-L550, L1025+
    kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch b. 1874 Campinschken near Tilsit N-L550, N-M178
    kit E13080 Joannes Reihs b. 1800 Bisztynek (Bischofstein) N-L1025
    kit 284236 Wannagat b. 1880, Jogeln/Göritten/Stallupönen, N-M178
    kit 147092 Johann Bever b. 1800, Ryabinovoye, N-M178
    kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, b. Wisztyniec, N-M232
    kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit b. 1800 Eszerischken, N-L1025
    kit N58382 Dargil, b. ca. 1344, Gut Dargels near Braunsberg, N-L1025
    kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, 1815, Belczac, N-M231, N-L1025
    kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, b. 1758, Łapka in Warmia, N-M232, N-L1025
    kit 173926 Baltazar Chylinski/Hilinski, 1866-1925, Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), N-L1025
    kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, b. 1729, Malbork (Marienburg), N-M232, L1025
    kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, Kolonie Bismarck bei Heydekrug, N-L551, L1025

    Haplogroup R1b - 12:

    kit 253571 Heinrich Bartel 1766-1828 Grudziądz (Graudenz) R-M269, R-U106
    kit N112758 Ignatius Reis b. 1858 Wabcz R-M269
    kit E15373 Johann Voelkner b. 1748 Rodnowo (Reddenau) R-M269
    kit E10648 Jacob Preuschoff b. 1575 Klejnówko (Klenau) R1b-L48
    kit N69965 Otto Emil Kraft, b. 1893 Tilsit R-P312
    kit 81967 Johann M. Wentzel, 1845-1923, Marienburg, R-DF13
    kit 59511 Johann Schwarm, b. 1814 Kwidzyń (Marienwerder), R-M269
    kit 17375 Bäsner, b. 1840, Heilsberg/Braunsberg, R-S5970
    kit E4574 b. 1844 in Kallinowen, Kreis Lyck, R-M269
    kit N14933 Walenty Straszewski, b. 1731, Waldowo Szlacheckie, R-L23, R-Z2103
    kit 266572 Karol Zalewski, b. 1812 , Rozogi, R-U106, R-Z8
    kit N43078 Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), R-23 (Z2103 or CTS7822 or CTS9219 needed)

    Haplogroup I - 10:

    kit E7698 Michael Rimek b. 1723 Szczytno (Ortelsburg), I-P37, M423+
    kit 125721 Gustav Schedlinski b. Jeziorowskie (Seedorf) I-M253
    kit E2677 Carl L. Nath b. 1820 Osterode I-M423
    kit 181479 Ludwig Muller b. 1858 Mamonovo I-Z260
    kit 169101 Otto Bewer b. 1899 Groß Skaisgirren I-M253
    kit 330214 Heinrich Kardell, 1841-1878, Graudenz, I-M253
    kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, 1790-1860, Prabuty I-P37
    kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, b. 1730, Gruta, I-M423
    kit 164185 August Napierski 1879-1962, Sensburg (Mrągowo), I-M253, I-P109
    kit 64526 Jurgis Serapins, b. 1857, Piktupenai (Picktupöhnen), I-M253

    Haplogroup J - 1:

    kit 173911 Wolf Zimak alias Simon Freybuschewitz b. Dąbrówno (Gilgenburg) d. 1884, J-PF5456

    Haplogroup E - 1:

    kit E4759 Johan Krüger 1680 Wehlau, E-V13

    Haplogroup G - 1:

    kit 260477 Walkau, Königsberg, G-M201

    Haplogroup T - 1:

    kit 96408 Michael Hohenfeld b. Tolkmicko, T-M70
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-20-2015 at 03:00 PM.

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