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Thread: 23andme's "German Problem."

  1. #11
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    I don't know which samples 23andMe is using. If they have above all samples from Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Bade, Hesse or Palatinate I am sure a North German sample would be classified as English or Dutch or Scandinavian. GEDmatch calculators put me closer to all these groups than to West or South Germans or Austrians. Another problem might be samples are not from current Germans but from US citizens telling they have German ancestry (is it always right? Do they know enough concerning the regions where their ancestors came from?).

    By the way, I'm not blond and I don't have blue eyes. A taxi driver in Kuwait several years ago was convinced I'm a Syrian .
    Last edited by CelticGerman; 08-25-2015 at 05:24 PM.
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333/CTS7958, from Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H
    EUROGENES K13: North German 3.7, North Dutch 4.85, Danish 5.13, Swedish 5.44, Norwegian 5.7 -- West Eurasia K8: WHG 46.64%, ENF 39.09%, ANE 14.23%
    23andMe: speculative 26% French&German, 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British&Irish, 1.6% Southern European, 38% Broadly North Euro
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss

  2. #12
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    I really do not know why they group French and German together.....
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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    I really do not know why they group French and German together.....
    Nobody knows I'm afraid. They could group people from Alsace/Loraine together with people from Saarland/Palatinate for sure, but people from Marseilles are completely different from people from Hamburg or Leipzig.
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333/CTS7958, from Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H
    EUROGENES K13: North German 3.7, North Dutch 4.85, Danish 5.13, Swedish 5.44, Norwegian 5.7 -- West Eurasia K8: WHG 46.64%, ENF 39.09%, ANE 14.23%
    23andMe: speculative 26% French&German, 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British&Irish, 1.6% Southern European, 38% Broadly North Euro
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticGerman View Post
    I don't know which samples 23andMe is using. If they have above all samples from Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Bade, Hesse or Palatinate I am sure a North German sample would be classified as English or Dutch or Scandinavian. GEDmatch calculators put me closer to all these groups than to West or South Germans or Austrians. Another problem might be samples are not from current Germans but from US citizens telling they have German ancestry (is it always right? Do they know enough concerning the regions where their ancestors came from?).

    By the way, I'm not blond and I don't have blue eyes. A taxi driver in Kuwait several years ago was convinced I'm a Syrian .
    many Germans of US citizens are from Pommerania or Prussia and currently live in the states of NY and minnesota, these German regions ( pomerania and prussia ) are in Poland and Lithuania now.

    In regards to Austrians, 23andme note them as german and or Italian, while switzerland falls in france and germany..........well , that's what they state to me.

    so , if you are swiss they take a percentage of
    French & German

    Connected to the British Isles, Scandinavia, southern Europe and eastern Europe, France and Germany have seen myriad peoples come and go over the last ten thousand years. Genetically and geographically the French and Germans are at the heart of Europe.
    Population Source Sample Size
    Germany 23andMe 367
    Netherlands 23andMe 207
    France 23andMe 200
    Switzerland 23andMe 87
    Belgium 23andMe 80
    Austria 23andMe 54
    France HGDP 29


    the swiss numbers to be used in "broadly northern european "
    Last edited by vettor; 08-25-2015 at 06:46 PM.


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  8. #15
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    I got 53% on speculative mode, and I'm from Belgium. I just consider "French and German" as "continental European" and nothing specifically French or German.

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  10. #16
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    Very good point, CelticGerman, that those from Marseilles are VERY different from those from Hamburg.

    The future for 23andme is to simply code each European country by province or county. I mean, with our powerful computers and such, how hard can it be to look for patterns and augment the variables. True, there would be low sample size for many counties, and there are so many Americans who may not know from which precise region their ancestors hailed.

    But lumping Southern French (Greeklike, certainly Italianlike) with Northern Germans (Anglo-like) is silly. And then not being able to even predict that a Hessian is a German is even sillier and is one place where they could improve.

    It is still all amazing though, if you think about it. A great product overall.

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TŠltos View Post
    The "precision and recall" is poor for Germans and French. https://www.23andme.com/ancestry_composition_guide/
    .
    This plot from the above link demonstrates the limitation of the approach used by 23andMe. I don't know if it has to do with which locations on the chromosomes 23andMe uses or it is just inherent to the mixture across Europe. Germans are the light blue arrows pointing left located just above the mass of black stars which represent the UK. It would be a lot clearer if the UK was left out of the plot but this would probably not appeal to many of the 23andMe customers. What would be nice is to have an interactive plot so you could bring the markers of interest to the front.

    PC1vsPC2.JPG

    If you go to the above link it will be a little clearer.
    R-P312/S116 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > A4556 > 2777444-T-C

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac von Frankfurt View Post
    This plot from the above link demonstrates the limitation of the approach used by 23andMe. I don't know if it has to do with which locations on the chromosomes 23andMe uses or it is just inherent to the mixture across Europe. Germans are the light blue arrows pointing left located just above the mass of black stars which represent the UK. It would be a lot clearer if the UK was left out of the plot but this would probably not appeal to many of the 23andMe customers. What would be nice is to have an interactive plot so you could bring the markers of interest to the front.

    PC1vsPC2.JPG

    If you go to the above link it will be a little clearer.
    Did you try Interpretome?
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333/CTS7958, from Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H
    EUROGENES K13: North German 3.7, North Dutch 4.85, Danish 5.13, Swedish 5.44, Norwegian 5.7 -- West Eurasia K8: WHG 46.64%, ENF 39.09%, ANE 14.23%
    23andMe: speculative 26% French&German, 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British&Irish, 1.6% Southern European, 38% Broadly North Euro
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss

  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticGerman View Post
    Nobody knows I'm afraid. They could group people from Alsace/Loraine together with people from Saarland/Palatinate for sure, but people from Marseilles are completely different from people from Hamburg or Leipzig.
    Problem is that there genetic regions of Europe don't match the political borders. Geographical borders are much better in this regard.

    For example in Germany it's Elbe and Rhine. East to Elbe people start to become Eastern-Euro shifted compared to "average German" and south to Rhine they become South-West Euro shifted. North and West of thoose rivers Germans are more similar to North Dutch and Danes.



    About French and German: from my observation of various genetical calculators such as West Eurasia K8 or Eurogenes K13\15 there is a cluster in continetal NW Europe made of West Germans, South Dutch, Flemish, Wallons and N-W French, all of them cluster close to each other and get thoose populations first in oracle.

    From my understanding French and German pop. reffers exactly to this genetical cluster, so Wallon may be much more F&G than Shlezwgian or Brandenburger fe.



    This kinda proofs my theory
    Quote Originally Posted by tchekitchek View Post
    I got 53% on speculative mode, and I'm from Belgium. I just consider "French and German" as "continental European" and nothing specifically French or German.





    I'm myself about 6.25 German+6.25 Swedish (likely mixed with German) and get 1% F&G and 1.4% Scando + ~12% Broadly North Euro, which surprised me at first.

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  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roaring View Post
    Problem is that there genetic regions of Europe don't match the political borders. Geographical borders are much better in this regard.

    For example in Germany it's Elbe and Rhine. East to Elbe people start to become Eastern-Euro shifted compared to "average German" and south to Rhine they become South-West Euro shifted. North and West of thoose rivers Germans are more similar to North Dutch and Danes.



    About French and German: from my observation of various genetical calculators such as West Eurasia K8 or Eurogenes K13\15 there is a cluster in continetal NW Europe made of West Germans, South Dutch, Flemish, Wallons and N-W French, all of them cluster close to each other and get thoose populations first in oracle.

    From my understanding French and German pop. reffers exactly to this genetical cluster, so Wallon may be much more F&G than Shlezwgian or Brandenburger fe.



    This kinda proofs my theory







    I'm myself about 6.25 German+6.25 Swedish (likely mixed with German) and get 1% F&G and 1.4% Scando + ~12% Broadly North Euro, which surprised me at first.
    For me, 23andMe doesn't help much with my German ancestry, which appears to be about 25% south and western German and maybe about the same in the old Prussian Poland provinces. I get plenty of northern or broadly European. That doesn't help much with a situation where one has a sizable Polish- German ancestry.

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