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Thread: [split] Uniparental Markers & Paleolithic Asia

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    [split] Uniparental Markers & Paleolithic Asia

    I think the chap Alberto who comments on Eurogenes has similar thoughts to me on a lot of this. I believe there was a wave of ANE hunters that originated around Altai and at the end of the Younger Dryas started to fan out towards Europe reaching a wide from from the Dniester to Denmark by 7000BC, mixing with WHG's in Europe and with Basal types in the Stans, east Caspian, the Caucasus and IMO also Caspain Iran and perhaps even the Zagros. That is the way pressure flaked microblades track in the period 9500BC-7000BC. You can see that as well as entering Europe, the pressure blade groups also entered the east Caucasus and north Iran at the end of the Younger Dryas. I think too that the Keltiminar people who occupied the east Caspian/Aral area were almost certainly ANE people too and they also have the pressure microblades.

    Actually a likely location where very high ANE was close to a largely basal or ENF group was the east Caspian where the Keltiminar hunter-fishers and the Jeitun farmers bordered each other during a wet phase when this area was more attractive than normal. However at some point this came to an end and I wonder if the two groups blended and were displaced when destification resumed.

    Another curious thing is that the Samara hunter lived in an area where the first pottery (the first pot in Europe apparently) was of Elshanka type which seems to have its origin in the east Caspian. This was the followed up by a second phase where pottery influences reach Samara from the Lower Volga. Both of these connections had occurred before the Samara hunter lived. The Samara hunter is said to be on a branch closer to one heading to M73 than M269 so its interesting that to this day the Turkem have a major concentration of M73. That sounds a lot like the M73 among the Turkmen was probably already present in the east Caspian among the Keltimar hunters and has survived to this day in a slightly displaced location. The origins of the Keltiminar culture seems to lie in the pressure microblade using groups - apparently one that only moved into the East Caspian rather late in the Mesolithic when the area become less arid. It seems likely to me that the origins of Keltiminar pressure microblades lay in north central Asia where much earlier groups of pressure microblade using hunters existed from Altai to the north Pontic-Caspian area. Keltiminar also have the pointed based Eurasian hunter pottery at a time which was slightly earlier than anyone else in Europe. That points IMO to a north-central Asian origin for Keltiminar because it is only in those area that pointed pot pre-dates that in the Keltiminar. Nowhere in Europe predates Keltiminar for pointed pottery. The Elshanka pottery in the Samara Mesolithic is the oldest in Europe but a recent paper suggests this is derived from Keltiminar pottery rather than the other way round. So it seems to me there is a simple logic that points to the origin of Keltiminar as being in north-central Asia. I suspect we will find that they were P297 - probably mostly M73 - people and that the Samara hunter is in some way linked to this group.

    Following this logic it appears to me that P297 must have originated in north-central Asia to the north of the desert belt between the Caspian and Altai.

    What I am not sure is if the pressure microblades that spread across north Eurasia at the end of the Younger Dryas and the pointed pottery wave 2000 years later represent two distinct peoples or if they were just developments within the same basic groups. Generally though I think the whole history of the arrival of R1a and b in far eastern Europe relates somehow to the waves that saw pressure microblades and then some time later pointed pottery spread across northern Eurasian from origin points around Altai in the period 10000BC to 6000BC and that there was no R1, no ANE etc in Europe before that period.

    Indeed I suspect that much prior to 10000BC, R1a, R1b and ANE probably were still located closer to the east end of north-central Asia near Altai. I dont expect to see any of these genetic indicators within Europe before 9500BC and with it only gradually tracking west to a Denmark-Dniester line by 7000BC. I expect that EHG was only created around 9000-7000BC when these eastern elements mixed with western elements in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think the chap Alberto who comments on Eurogenes has similar thoughts to me on a lot of this. I believe there was a wave of ANE hunters that originated around Altai and at the end of the Younger Dryas started to fan out towards Europe reaching a wide from from the Dniester to Denmark by 7000BC, mixing with WHG's in Europe and with Basal types in the Stans, east Caspian, the Caucasus and IMO also Caspain Iran and perhaps even the Zagros. That is the way pressure flaked microblades track in the period 9500BC-7000BC. You can see that as well as entering Europe, the pressure blade groups also entered the east Caucasus and north Iran at the end of the Younger Dryas. I think too that the Keltiminar people who occupied the east Caspian/Aral area were almost certainly ANE people too and they also have the pressure microblades.

    Actually a likely location where very high ANE was close to a largely basal or ENF group was the east Caspian where the Keltiminar hunter-fishers and the Jeitun farmers bordered each other during a wet phase when this area was more attractive than normal. However at some point this came to an end and I wonder if the two groups blended and were displaced when destification resumed.

    Another curious thing is that the Samara hunter lived in an area where the first pottery (the first pot in Europe apparently) was of Elshanka type which seems to have its origin in the east Caspian. This was the followed up by a second phase where pottery influences reach Samara from the Lower Volga. Both of these connections had occurred before the Samara hunter lived. The Samara hunter is said to be on a branch closer to one heading to M73 than M269 so its interesting that to this day the Turkem have a major concentration of M73. That sounds a lot like the M73 among the Turkmen was probably already present in the east Caspian among the Keltimar hunters and has survived to this day in a slightly displaced location. The origins of the Keltiminar culture seems to lie in the pressure microblade using groups - apparently one that only moved into the East Caspian rather late in the Mesolithic when the area become less arid. It seems likely to me that the origins of Keltiminar pressure microblades lay in north central Asia where much earlier groups of pressure microblade using hunters existed from Altai to the north Pontic-Caspian area. Keltiminar also have the pointed based Eurasian hunter pottery at a time which was slightly earlier than anyone else in Europe. That points IMO to a north-central Asian origin for Keltiminar because it is only in those area that pointed pot pre-dates that in the Keltiminar. Nowhere in Europe predates Keltiminar for pointed pottery. The Elshanka pottery in the Samara Mesolithic is the oldest in Europe but a recent paper suggests this is derived from Keltiminar pottery rather than the other way round. So it seems to me there is a simple logic that points to the origin of Keltiminar as being in north-central Asia. I suspect we will find that they were P297 - probably mostly M73 - people and that the Samara hunter is in some way linked to this group.

    Following this logic it appears to me that P297 must have originated in north-central Asia to the north of the desert belt between the Caspian and Altai.

    What I am not sure is if the pressure microblades that spread across north Eurasia at the end of the Younger Dryas and the pointed pottery wave 2000 years later represent two distinct peoples or if they were just developments within the same basic groups. Generally though I think the whole history of the arrival of R1a and b in far eastern Europe relates somehow to the waves that saw pressure microblades and then some time later pointed pottery spread across northern Eurasian from origin points around Altai in the period 10000BC to 6000BC and that there was no R1, no ANE etc in Europe before that period.

    Indeed I suspect that much prior to 10000BC, R1a, R1b and ANE probably were still located closer to the east end of north-central Asia near Altai. I dont expect to see any of these genetic indicators within Europe before 9500BC and with it only gradually tracking west to a Denmark-Dniester line by 7000BC. I expect that EHG was only created around 9000-7000BC when these eastern elements mixed with western elements in Europe.
    Im not sure if the spread of R1 groups, if true, from central Asia can be inked with pressure blades and pre-Neolithic pottery ,because those cultural phenomena originated much further east, didn't they ? (i.e. 'oriental')

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Im not sure if the spread of R1 groups, if true, from central Asia can be inked with pressure blades and pre-Neolithic pottery ,because those cultural phenomena originated much further east, didn't they ? (i.e. 'oriental')
    Damn - I lost a detailed reply so here goes again. Mal'ta R was in Baikal and similar prob in Altai refugia. Pressure microblades may have arisen in Altai in the LGM c. 20000BC and pottery apparently is extremely early in Baikal c. 11000BC. There is an incredible delay in either of these spreading west. The reason for the delay in the spread of pressure microblades is partly down to the LGM. However, it actually seems even later that it reached Europe with Botovo the earliest c. 9500BC and similar early dates on the northern fringe of SW Asia around north Iran and the Caucasus.

    They seem to have spread from the Urals to Denmark across the period 9500-7000BC and further south they similarly spread, perhaps a little later across the Euro steppes. So by 7000BC they were known east of a line from Denmark to the Dniester. in doing so they overlapped with hunters coming from the western tradition in the opposite directon who had made it as far east as Karela. There was probably an ovelap of east and west c. 8000-7000BC all the way from Denmark to Karelia. To the south there was a similar mix of microblades wth local (probably gravettian derived) hunters in at least parts of Ukraine. So as well as Denmark to Karelia there was probably an overlap between eastern and western hunters in Ukraine.

    Now, my hypothesis is that the whole R-R1-R1a-R1b phases up to at the earliest 10000BC took place in south-central Siberia and it is only with the spread of [pressure microblades and a later spread of pottery that there is evidence of links between this south-central Asian area and Europe. I also see the spread of these pressure microblades just after the Younger Dryas as behind ANE arriving in eastern and north-east Europe, the Caucasus and even north Iran.

    Now the obvous question is why is there not a big load of basal R1, R1a and R1b in south-central Siberia/Altai etc? Well I think there are clear reasons to expect no continuity there or in the trail to Europe. North Eurasia was largely becoming forested over when the Younger Dryas created a drastic change which temporarily restored open landscapes of early post-glacial times across much of Eurasia. This would have brought both bitter cold but also major new hunting opportunities in the open land. Then there is the sucker punch end of the Younger Dryas/start of the (pre) Boreal. It warmed up but this meant that much of north Eurasia (except the far north) re-forested. So, in the space of just a few centuries the climate of north Eurasia swung from woods to open to woods again which is a recipe for major displacement.

    My hunch is that the big factor which may have driven groups of microblade users west into specific areas like the extreme north-east of Europe close to the ice, the Euro steppes and perhaps even some area of central Asia and north mountain fringes of SW Asia was a desire for open land in a world of closing forests. The western hunters seem to have done similar following the reindeer close to the ice sheets through northern Europe.

    As for pottery, it seems to have been present in Baikal c. 11000BC but not in Europe until Elshanka pottery c. 6000BC??- cant remember date as its often quoted in different ways. So the pottery seems to have been a later wave into Europe. The first phase of pottery in the Samara Mesolithic (and indeed anywhere in Europe) is the Elshanka pottery which a couple of recent authors have linked in its method and shape to the East Caspian/Aral area - I think to the Keltiminer hunters there (they also used pressure microblades among other technologies). Then the 2nd phase of pottery in the Samara Mesolithic is linked to the Lower Volga. The Samara hunter P297 guy is very interesting given all these connections. That hunter is said to be on a branch closer to M73 and M73. I seem to recall still has a hotspot among Turkmen. So there is a possible case that P297 could have some link to the early East Caspian hunters and their pot. Some distinctive types of arrowheads of the latter culture are also known in the Volga-Ural area.

    How this all ties to R1a and b and ANE I am not sure but I strong suspect they are somehow involved in their entry into Europe and that prior to this post-Younger Dryas entry they were confined to north central Asia/south-central Siberia. The Swedish hunter with ANE is evidence of the northern branch and indeed microblades do appear in the assemblages for the first time in northern Europe shortly before he lived.
    Last edited by alan; 08-21-2015 at 09:15 PM.

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    Alan

    Thanks for your reply. That certainly makes sense , and is possible / probable.
    I'm hopefull more palaeolithic genomes will tell us exactly when ANE and R groups arrived to european far East.

    I've personally wondered whether the Holocene desertification of Central Asia had anything to do with it ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-22-2015 at 12:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Alan

    Thanks for your reply. That certainly makes sense , and is possible / probable.
    I'm hopefull more palaeolithic genomes will tell us exactly when ANE and R groups arrived to european far East.

    I've personally wondered whether the Holocene desertification of Central Asia had anything to do with it ?
    I think its increasingly clear that in many periods climate oscillations were the main factor in sudden movements. When it get dryer and sunnier to the north and west if generally gets horribly arid to the south and east. The east is especially sensitive to aridity phases. Regarding central Asia it depends what you mean. The band from the east Caspian through the Stans seems to have been a no-go zone for much of prehistory as it was a cold desert in the LGM then a warmer desert for much of the Holecene. I think in general movements of people were from slightly higher latitudes when crossing central Asia in prehistory. The exception is the wetter Atlantic phase when hunters from the north (Keltiminar) and farmers from NE Iran (Jeitun) seem to have been tempted into the east Caspian area which previously seems to have been mostly avoided by both except for some hunters clinging to the watery spots. Also recall the incredibly changes in this area which the far smaller than present Caspian sea then expanded way beyond the present sea and the Aral connected to it under in the early Holocene, followed by major retreat.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LK0O4XYbxU...spian-Seas.png

    This obviously must have had all sorts of complex effects in terms of opportunities for hunter-fishers and (something that should not be overlooked)it would have destroyed and deeply buried beyond normal recovery any traces of hunters in the expansion path of the sea. So, there is much that we could be missing. For example hunters in that zone would likely have retreated with the seas as they shrunk (the sea being the only real attraction in the very arid area) - presumably towards the Caspian and Aral basins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think its increasingly clear that in many periods climate oscillations were the main factor in sudden movements. When it get dryer and sunnier to the north and west if generally gets horribly arid to the south and east. The east is especially sensitive to aridity phases. Regarding central Asia it depends what you mean. The band from the east Caspian through the Stans seems to have been a no-go zone for much of prehistory as it was a cold desert in the LGM then a warmer desert for much of the Holecene. I think in general movements of people were from slightly higher latitudes when crossing central Asia in prehistory. The exception is the wetter Atlantic phase when hunters from the north (Keltiminar) and farmers from NE Iran (Jeitun) seem to have been tempted into the east Caspian area which previously seems to have been mostly avoided by both except for some hunters clinging to the watery spots. Also recall the incredibly changes in this area which the far smaller than present Caspian sea then expanded way beyond the present sea and the Aral connected to it under in the early Holocene, followed by major retreat.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LK0O4XYbxU...spian-Seas.png

    This obviously must have had all sorts of complex effects in terms of opportunities for hunter-fishers and (something that should not be overlooked)it would have destroyed and deeply buried beyond normal recovery any traces of hunters in the expansion path of the sea. So, there is much that we could be missing. For example hunters in that zone would likely have retreated with the seas as they shrunk (the sea being the only real attraction in the very arid area) - presumably towards the Caspian and Aral basins.
    what do we know about the settlement of more southerly aspect of 'soviet' Central Asia - the oases strips of the 'Stans, Hindu Kush and Northern Iran in the pre-Neolithic ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    what do we know about the settlement of more southerly aspect of 'soviet' Central Asia - the oases strips of the 'Stans, Hindu Kush and Northern Iran in the pre-Neolithic ?
    I did look into that too but the info was poor and confusing. I was considering the possibility that anyone moving westwards from an ancient R centre in places like Baikal and Altai had a choice to either go north of the deserts of former Soviet Central Asia (i really miss being about to use that useful term hahahaha)or they could go just south of it along the northern fringe of the mountains of inner Asia. This desert - whether cold or warm seems to have existed since the start of the LGM right through to today with just a few short periods when it was wetter. Evidence seems to show it was avoided by hunters in the glacial and even for a long time in the post-Glacial era. So any movement from the zone where Mal'ta lived to the west from 24000BC to even as late as 7000BC or so may have been posed with choice of going north or south of this very arid band that stretches from the Caspain's east shore to China.

    I have largely focused on looking at the northern route and in doing so I found no evidence of a move of a Ma'lta type populations (his culture was known as the middle upper palaeolithic of south-central Siberia and was confined from Transbaikal/north Mongolia/NW corner of China in the north-east to Altai and eastern Kazakhstan in the south-east). I found no evidence of use of the northern route to head west in the entire period of human history right up to around 10000BC when evidence of ideas with origins in the Baikal/Altai zone do spread west - first pressure flaked microblades and their distinctive cores c. 9500BC onwards and then pre-farming north Eurasian pointed based pottery a couple of millennia later.

    As for the southern route, there was at one time interesting singletons of R* or R1* or other unusual individuals strung along that southern route so I considered it as a possible route west. I looked very hard at this route but simply could find nothing to link then to a movement west from the sort of area Mal'ta boy lived. I tried very hard because a movement to escape the LGM along the southern route from Altai - in some ways appealed as I liked the idea that they could have followed it to the south Caspian shores which even in its shrunken LGM state must have been a great resource. However, I could find absolutely no connection between the hunters in the south Caspian or inner Asian mountain fringe and Mal'ta. Admittedly though the post-LGM super-flooding of the Caspian with its linking in a chain to the Black and Aral Seas etc must have destroyed or buried a great deal of evidence and caused some major population upheavals as the seas rose from thevery shrunken LGM forms to giant super-seas which were far larger than today before shrinking back towards modern forms- all in just a few thousand years. So we could be missing a lot of data in the East Caspian area regarding post-LGM hunter-gatherers.

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    Alan,

    Ive read around the last couple of days about central Asia in the pre-Neolithic period, and this is what I understood. Now, this is tempered by the fact that most of this research was done in the 1970s by Russian archaeologists. It is limited by the less than abundant material, often self -contradictory claims within their own one piece of work (e.g. on one page they claim a site was 90cm deep, then on another 1.5m) and they often shift chronologies by centuries, albeit on the basis of exactly the same artefacts, etc.

    1) As you mention - the Upper palaeolithic in central Asia (by that I mean northern Iran, and the -Stans) is scantily populated. A mere handful of sites, and the region might have been entirely abandoned during the LGM due to it being a cold desert.

    2) there is sold evidence for 'Epipalaeolithic'/ Mesolithic populations from c. 10 ky BP. During a warmer, more humid oscillations, the Caspian sea transgressed eastward. As evidenced by microlith technology, which was standardised from northern Iran to southern Urals, such hunter-gatherers must have been in contact utilising the Caspian littoral as a point of contact. (many view this development spreading from south to north) A few other Mesolithic sites are also found further east, e.g. in the Pamir foothills.

    3) evidence for early domestication in the "Jeitun culture' as early as M8 - goats and sheep, probably a response to aridification, requiring more intensive/ yielding economy in wake of resource crisis, as well as impulses from the Near Eastern centres. Just north of jeitun was occupied by the Kelteminar culture - which had a more mesolithic outlook. This might have mediated the appearance of pre-Neolithic pottery in Russian groups, with similarities as far as the Pitted Ware culture in eastern Scandinavia.

    4) going into the Chalcolithic, there was an increased aridity again. I think it is here when the Kopet Dagh sequence begins, as humans retreated to mountainous foothills as a survival mechanism. The climax of this phase was of course the BMAC.

    I think (2) above might underlie similarities between preNeolithic foragers in southern Russia/ Urals and central Asia. (3) Might explain the "Teal" people. All in all, when one considers these findings, and the new D-stats, it become evident that past calculations of the 'steppe ancestry' in modern central Asians, are probably over- exaggerated.


    ADDENDUM

    About the link to Mal'ta. I don't think there is anything direct to be had. Recent reappraisals of Dating suggests Siberia was virtually entirely depopulated during the LGM.
    So the question is, where did the ANE -like population which re-colonised siberia and contribued to EHG, and presumably some Post-glacial Central Asian groups take refuge ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-23-2015 at 04:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Alan,

    Ive read around the last couple of days about central Asia in the pre-Neolithic period, and this is what I understood. Now, this is tempered by the fact that most of this research was done in the 1970s by Russian archaeologists. It is limited by the less than abundant material, often self -contradictory claims within their own one piece of work (e.g. on one page they claim a site was 90cm deep, then on another 1.5m) and they often shift chronologies by centuries, albeit on the basis of exactly the same artefacts, etc.

    1) As you mention - the Upper palaeolithic in central Asia (by that I mean northern Iran, and the -Stans) is scantily populated. A mere handful of sites, and the region might have been entirely abandoned during the LGM due to it being a cold desert.

    2) there is sold evidence for 'Epipalaeolithic'/ Mesolithic populations from c. 10 ky BP. During a warmer, more humid oscillations, the Caspian sea transgressed eastward. As evidenced by microlith technology, which was standardised from northern Iran to southern Urals, such hunter-gatherers must have been in contact utilising the Caspian littoral as a point of contact. (many view this development spreading from south to north) A few other Mesolithic sites are also found further east, e.g. in the Pamir foothills.

    3) evidence for early domestication in the "Jeitun culture' as early as M8 - goats and sheep, probably a response to aridification, requiring more intensive/ yielding economy in wake of resource crisis, as well as impulses from the Near Eastern centres. Just north of jeitun was occupied by the Kelteminar culture - which had a more mesolithic outlook. This might have mediated the appearance of pre-Neolithic pottery in Russian groups, with similarities as far as the Pitted Ware culture in eastern Scandinavia.

    4) going into the Chalcolithic, there was an increased aridity again. I think it is here when the Kopet Dagh sequence begins, as humans retreated to mountainous foothills as a survival mechanism. The climax of this phase was of course the BMAC.

    I think (2) above might underlie similarities between preNeolithic foragers in southern Russia/ Urals and central Asia. (3) Might explain the "Teal" people. All in all, when one considers these findings, and the new D-stats, it become evident that past calculations of the 'steppe ancestry' in modern central Asians, are probably over- exaggerated.


    ADDENDUM

    About the link to Mal'ta. I don't think there is anything direct to be had. Recent reappraisals of Dating suggests Siberia was virtually entirely depopulated during the LGM.
    So the question is, where did the ANE -like population which re-colonised siberia and contribued to EHG, and presumably some Post-glacial Central Asian groups take refuge ?
    Altai. There is a well attested refugium there. It had some sort of very favourable LGM micro-climate. Malta boy lived unusually late for his culture - he is literally the youngest date for his culture by 2000 years. Otherwise the place was evacuated including all the R people. It is likely that they moved south to Altai which is the nearest known LGM refugium where many people think the pressure microblade technique developed among those huddling there around 20000BC during the teeth of the LGM. This refugium may have been a Q and R refuge and in both cases the post-LGM/late upper palaeolithic expansion out of the refuge is marked by pressure flaked microblades and their distinctive, sometimes bullet shaped, cores. The Q group headed east and north-east mixing with east Asian before reaching America, while the R group might be tracked by the similar westwards spread of pressure microblades which reached eastern fringes of Europe and the north of SW Asia c. 9500BC.

    What I think complicates this is that after 10000BC eastern Europe, Siberia and north cental Asia seems to have been settled by a string of groups of likely eastern origins. The Urals and the northern fringes of SW Asai were probably settled by them by 9500BC. If the microblade groups are an indicator there were different but possibly related groups all the way from Altai and Baikal to a line from the Baltic to the Dniester by 7000BC. Its also complex as any subgroup along that path could then have a secondary expansion in any direction and at any time. There is then the pointed pot which probably started in south-central Asia before spreading across Siberia to south Urals c. 6500BC. There was also pointed pot people in Keltiminar - some say the Elshanka pot is derived from them. So I think its not a simple single wave of pressure microblade users. Its more likely that that established a widespread ANE population across much of Siberia, north central Asia, the Urals and eastern Europe but there were then secondary expansions into areas like the east Caspian in the Altantic phase, pottery spread 2000 years behind the microblades, there may have been connections between the Urals, Keltiminar and Pit Comb - its complex. However, I think all of these people's were essentially linked to different aspects of the ANE expansions and multi-directional re-expansions.

    I see no evidence for any such movement of this ANE population until the Younger Dryas sort of period or even the end of the latter. I see no evidence that Mal'ta type people moved west to SW Asia or south Asia during the LGM. As far as I can see the LGM basically trapped the Mal'ta population between cold low desert and upland polar deserts and there was no escape south unless they escaped before the LGM gripped.

    The only even possible way out was the way the steppe tundra belt just about reached Cis Baikal but there is no evidence that anyone braved the crazy level of coldness in that end of the steppe tundra in the LGM. Pretty well Mal'ta Boy is the last date as far north as Baikal between 22000BC and maybe 10000 years later - certainly until well after the LGM ended. So IMO nothing happened in the way of a flight west in the LGM. Well no trace of a Siberian derived culture in Europe, SW Asia or south central Asia during the LGM that I have ever heard of despite looking fairly hard. However there is the pressure microblade and then pointed pot spreads - items that seem to have originated in Altai in the LGM and Baikal C. 8000BC respectively. So for that reason I see the ANE and R1 in Europe and adjacent parts of Asia as a post-LGM and probably post-Younger Dryas movement from Siberia.

    Of course this is not all about a movement to eastern Europe. The microblades extended across Siberia to the Urals and into the Caucasus and the north of Iran/Zagross c. 9500BC and was apparently in Keltiminar in the east Caspain and other north-central Asian and south Siberian groups. The pointed pottery also moved in a similar trajectory although in its case it didnt move into south-west Asia - ASAIK Keltiminar is its southern point but I might be wrong. So if these spreads are linked to ANE (I would nearly offer to eat my hat if they are not) then some ANE moved into areas to the south of where the WHG-ANE mix that is associated with EHG came together. In the northern fringes of south-west Asia in Iran, perhaps the Caucasus and later in the east Caspian they moved into areas where ANE would be mixing with different kinds of hunter and/or farmers.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Gravetto-Danubian (08-23-2015),  Hando (08-24-2015)

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    Thanks . One can't really disagree with any aspect of that reconstruction
    Do we have evidence (references) for habitation of the Altai during the LGM ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-23-2015 at 10:54 PM.

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