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Thread: Kvenish origin of Rurikid branch of N1c ???

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    Kvenish origin of Rurikid branch of N1c ???

    Kvens (Kwänen) from Sweden were Finnic-speaking people. According to this German-made ethnic map from 1847, there were still Kvens living even in southern and central Sweden at that time:

    http://historum.com/european-history...73?postcount=9

    German-made map in question, published in year 1847:

    Fragment showing Kvenland: http://postimg.org/image/52yrnky2j/

    Baltic Sea area plus legend: http://postimg.org/image/7bhs4lgwp/full/



    ^ Huge inland areas shown as Kvenish majority + "Schwedische Ansiedlung" (Swedish colonisation).

    ====================================

    The oldest sample of N1c so far, is from Russian-Belarusian borderland and dates back to the mid-3rd millennium BC: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post464726

    2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

    Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

    Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

    (...)

    Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon (and was later influenced by Corded Ware / Globular Amphora people):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture
    Unfortunately there is no detailed info on what subclade that could be.

    But if that was L550 then it will mean that L550 emerged in Zhizhitskaya culture, because it is not older than it.

    Rurikid branch of N1c is one of sub-branches of L550. Here a nice tree:

    http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg



    And here age estimates:

    According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

    According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 ybp respectively.

    N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture is from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC (4500 ybp +/- a few centuries).

    If this sample turns out to be L550, then we will have 99% proof that Zhizhitskaya is where L550 emerged.

    ===========================

    Do you think that Zhizhitskaya people could be Finnic-speaking and later became Indo-Europeanised?

    IIRC, it has been argued that Finnic language was not present in this area (map) in the 3rd millennium BC:

    http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/



    That N1c sample in question (from the 3rd millennium BC) was found near Serteya (^ map above).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-26-2015 at 05:28 PM.

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    Too bad the Russian scientists didn't release the sample to public or (AFAIK) send it to western labs. Based on what we now know, chances are Zhizhitskaya N1c1 is not L550, quite likely not even VL29. The ages of those subclades based on next gen sequencing are on the tree you linked, and they seem too young. CTS10760+ is ancestral to VL29, which includes L550, and estimated 3500 years old. It was found in Pinega, eastern Archangelsk Oblast.

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    Thanks Shaikorth.

    The main question though, is whether the Rurikid branch was Kvenish. As we can see those Kvens lived between Swedes and Norwegians, extending even as late as 1847 almost as far south as Skagerrak and Kattegat, while in the east reaching the coasts of the Gulf of Bothnia - if we believe that German map.

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    That's going to be a hard case to solve without ancient DNA (the same old song). There may be a discontinuity between the people of ancient Kvenland (who may be a candidate for spreading L550 in Scandinavia) and Kvens of post-medieval period to which that map refers to. The latter moved to Sweden during Swedish rule of Finland, and later went to Norway.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kven_people
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvenland

    edit. whatever the Kven case, L550 still clearly came to Scandinavia from the east so modern DNA may help a bit.
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

    Big-Y has found (seemingly) the most basal L550* from Finland, Scotland and Norway. No branches have been formed for them yet, but STR-wise the Norwegians and the Scot are relatively close to each other so their connection is more recent (as expected) but the Finn is not, which implies that connection is much older than Viking period.
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1949
    Last edited by Shaikorth; 08-26-2015 at 07:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth
    The latter moved to Sweden during Swedish rule of Finland, and later went to Norway.
    This information is from wikipedia and it is most certainly false.

    There was continuous presence of Kvens, even if some new immigrants also came.

    Kvens are attested in Medieval sources as well - they were not just Ancient people but also Medieval.



    According to "Leiðarvísir og borgarskipan", written in year 1157 AD:

    It contains two descriptions of lands around Norway that the authors seems to have acquired for his book from independent sources:

    "Götaland (Gautland) is east of the River Göta (Gautelfi), and closest to it is Sweden (Svíþjóð), then closest is Hälsingland (Helsingaland), then Finland (Finnland); then come the borders of Russia (Garðaríki), which we mentioned earlier. But on the other side of Götaland is Denmark."

    "Closest to Denmark is little Sweden (Svíþjóð), there is Öland (Eyland); then is Gotland (Gotland); then Hälsingland (Helsingaland); then Värmland (Vermaland); then two Kvenlands (Kvenlönd), and they extend to north of Bjarmia (Bjarmalandi)."

    The first description lists Finland, but not Kvenland. The second one mentions "two Kvenlands", but not Finland. It has been presumed, that by "two Kvenlands" here the abbot probably referred to Kvenland and Finland, as the two were both inhabited by culturally quite similar type of Finnic peoples (in addition to the Uralic Sami) that in other Islandic sources are sometimes said to have been ruled by the same kings.
    Such an excerpt from an article written by M. Sjostrom (e-mail: mqsjo5@gmail.com):

    A current DNA research project by Dr. Andrzej Bajor of Poland, under the auspices of the Family Tree DNA Rurikid Dynasty Project, seeks to more accurately place Rurik within the light of history and out of the shadows of legend, while simultaneously trying to map his modern descendants. The DNA results of modern Rurikid princes indicate that Rurik was probably of Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N1C1, formerly designated N3a1). Further genetic studies seem to indicate the existence of two haplogroups among modern Rurikids: the descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh (Monomakhoviches) and some others are of N1c1 group typical for Finno-Ugrian people, while the descendants of a junior prince from the branch of Oleg I of Chernihiv (Olgoviches) are of R1a group typical for Slavic peoples. According to the Russian Newsweek magazine it indicates that the official genealogy is probably incorrect probably because of a non-paternity event [adultery, adoption, etc. - JW] in the Chernihiv branch.

    The project of Bajor has thus far tested twelve such genealogy-traced Rurikid descendants, from widely varying branches (two Gagarins, a Khilkov, Vadbolsky, Puzyna, Kropotkin, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Shakhovskoy, Myshetsky, Solomin, Rzhevsky, Putyatin), whose Y DNA shows they belong to the same N1C1 agnatic lineage. This weight of numbers is a strong support for the Finno-Ugric genetic origin of Rurikids.

    Rurik, being genetically of a Finnic patriline, had an agnatic forefather in the distant past, a 'Y-chromosomal Tshuudi'.

    According to Dr Bajor, the Rurikids' genetic haplo (N1c1) can be explained as Finnic genetical substrate in a north-germanic population living in eastern coastal Sweden, a bit like professor Kalevi Wiik has theorized the Germanic language to have developed in such places: the Roslagen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden, where Rurik was supposed to have been born), was inhabited mainly by a Finnic population until approximately the middle of the first millennium CE. The Norse and Goths came also to live in this region and were mixed with the native Finns, their germanic language taking over. However, Finnic (aka Tshuudi) genes survived in some of patrilines, as Rurik's patriline is Finnic, although already his name shows [?] his family were speakers of Germanic language [this is doubtful].

    Rurik and his progeny came to rule over northern territories where only a portion of the genome are similar with other Indo-Europeans - and (to the point in this) much of the genome are similar with Finnic tshuudi. Finnic-Ugric tribes had been some inhabitants in vast regions in northern and western Russia, and there were plenty of their remnants in genome. The Finnic portion is a genetical substrate in the Slavic Indo-European population of western and northern Russia, a bit like professor Kalevi Wiik has theorized the Slavic language to have developed in such places. The land was inhabited mainly by a Finnic population BCE, until Indo-European language came also to this region and was adopted by many of native Finnic (aka tshuudi) population, forming ultimately the Indo-European Russian language. However, Finnic genes survived in many of the patrilines. The Russian population was thusly formed in part of descendants of Finnic inhabitants of the areas, and in part of descendants of Slavic Indo-Europeans.
    Description of Europe from Othere's voyage also mentions Kvens.

    To the east of the land of Norwegians, in the mountains, lived Finns.

    And on the other side of those mountains, Othere's account places:

    1) Swedes in the south
    2) to the north of Swedes - Kvens
    3) north of Halogaland (where Othere lived) - wilderness with no people

    He also wrote that Kvens sometimes invaded the place where he lived across the mountains, and that Norwegians also sometimes invaded Kvens. Kvens made use of mountain lakes & rivers to cross the mountains and invade Norwegians, sailing in their boats across those lakes.

    So here is how those Kvenish raids described by Othere could look like:

    http://www.sagazorm.net/zorm/mythology/ohthere/ow.html



    And here areas further south:

    http://www.sagazorm.net/zorm/mytholo...e/wulfstan.jpg

    Adam von Bremen mentioned Kvens and called them a "powerful nation" who lived along the Gulf of Bothnia.

    According to Adam, they defeated the Swedish army and killed Onundr son of King Emundr (AvB, IV. 19).

    Check also these wikipedia articles:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Kvenland

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkarls

    Toponym "Finnveden" probably marks the southernmost extent of Finnic Kvens:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnveden

    There are at least 1961 place names in Sweden beginning with Finn-. And there are 892 names starting with Dan-. And 44 England. 12 Tyskland. Etc. Some of the 1961 names with Finn- are ancient. Others may be connected with recent immigration, like Finnskogen in Norway:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnskogen

    But Finnveden is surely an ancient toponym, because it was mentioned already by Jordanes:

    Finnveden or Finnheden is one of the ancient small lands of Småland. (...) It was first mentioned by Jordanes when he referred to its population as the Finnaithae (derived from an old form of Finnheden, Finn(h)aith-) when describing the nations of Scandza in Getica.

    Etymology:

    The Scandinavian placenames Finnveden, Finnmark and the province of Finland (which gave name to Finland) are all thought to derive from Finn, an ancient Germanic word for the Finnic people inhabiting areas of Fenno-Scandia and Scandinavia. The connection between the names Finnveden, Finnmark and Finland is not entirely clear. However, it is known that in addition to the Uralic Sami people, the Finnic tribe of Kvens have historically inhabited areas of Scandinavia which today are part of Norway and Sweden. According to Emeritus Professor Kyösti Julku,[1] in the area of Tromsa, Norway, alone there are 12 prehistoric Kven place names.
    Roslagen archipelago (Väddö island and similar islands opposite the Roslagen coast) was inhabited by Finnic-speaking people in the Early Middle Ages. They became Swedicized later.

    As for the name "Rurik":

    There is no such name in Germanic languages. This is why proponents of the Germanic origin of Rurik claimed, that his real name was Rorik and that it was distorted into Rurik by the Primary Chronicle.

    However, there is a Finnic name Ruurikki, which is in use even today.

    So Rurik could be a Kvenish or a Finnic name in fact. Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - claimed so.

    Other variants of name Ruurikki include(d) also Ruuri and Ruurikko.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-26-2015 at 07:32 PM.

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    In general there are few things that might speak in favor of expansion from Finland after 536 AD events in Baltics.

    http://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeolog...14-1-30-56.pdf

    "Thus, one can observe a sudden population loss in the 6th century in a zone in northern Europe that encompassed at least Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Gotland, ÷land, southern Sweden as far as Lake M‰laren, southern Norway, Denmark, as well as Schleswig-Holstein and northern Frisia in Germany" (page 40)

    But
    "As mentioned above, there is no decrease of the number of burials in the 6th century southern Finland, nevertheless a sudden and profound change in
    The impact of the climate catastrophe of 536ñ537 AD material culture took place also there (Lehtosalo-Hilander 1984, 285). The Finnish Merovingian period (550ñ800) has been characterized, drawing upon archaeological findings, by an outbreak and blossoming of local culture during which former artefacts of Scandinavian and Baltic example are replaced by highly unique weapons and jewellery with no counterparts in neighbouring areas (cf.Salmo 1938; Salo 2012a, 96). " (page 44/45).

    "The famine of 536ñ537 might have broken this trade network, because the Svear and Vironians had either died of starvation or they simply had no grain or
    beer to offer in exchange for furs. It is impossible to specify how the Finnish fur traders managed to trade their goods, but it seems that after misfortune had struck
    their middlemen, they had to find new markets. Whether the inhabitants of Finnish coastal areas travelled with their goods to the southern shore of the Baltic Sea or
    Germanic traders arrived themselves is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that the ancestors of Finns developed first-hand contacts with the territories of modern
    northern Germany, and new but probably indirect trade bonds with territories of modern Ukraine and Permic area" (page 46).

    and so on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth
    The latter moved to Sweden during Swedish rule of Finland, and later went to Norway.
    There was indeed such immigration - but those were fishermen moving only along the coast.

    While the map that I posted, shows Kvenish-majority territory deep inland, far from the coast.

    So they were not recent immigrants but remnants of ancient Kvens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    However, there is a Finnic name Ruurikki, which is in use even today.

    So Rurik could be a Kvenish or a Finnic name in fact. Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - claimed so.

    Other variants of name Ruurikki include(d) also Ruuri and Ruurikko.
    Ruurikki - Finnish form of Rurik
    Rurik - Nordic spelling of Рюрик (Ryurik), a Russian form of Rørik
    Rørik - Old Danish and Old Swedish form of HrøríkR
    HrøríkR - Old Norse name, Combination of HROD and RIK (fame + ruler; Norse for Vladislav )

    I think they were Kwenish/Finnish guys (originally) but they used lingua franca of their time and place, which was Old Norse.

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    OK but how do we determine whose name that was "originally" ???

    Was it originally Germanic, originally Finnic? Or maybe accidental similarity or cognates?

    For example there is also this case of Slavic Vladimir / Norse Valdemar. I have seen two theories:

    1) That Valdemar was derived from Vladimir.
    2) Both developed independently (cognates).

    Sources supporting theory 1) are for example the following ones:

    First "ever" Valdemar was Valdemar I (1131-1182), who was named after his great-grandfather, Vladimir II (1053-1125). And all later Valdemars born after that, were named after that Valdemar I:

    https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemar

    "Valdemar er et dansk drengenavn, der stammer fra det russiske Vladimir."

    http://www.historisktidsskrift.dk/summary/92_262.html

    "Valdemar was named after his great-grandfather, Vladimir Monomakh. According to the Knytlinga Saga Valdemar was not only born at his Russian grandfather's court but also spent his childhood in Russia, possibly with his uncle in Novgorod. "

    Diminutive or poetic form of Valdemar became Volmer:

    http://www.kalliope.org/en/dict.cgi?wid=Volmer

    "Volmer: anden (poetisk) form for navnet Valdemar."

    http://www.ragnarok-ultimate.dk/kongvolmer/

    "Kong Volmer was the nickname of one of the great Danish kings of the middle ages. Kong Volmers real name was Valdemar Atterdag (1320-1375)."

    As for theory 2), that they are cognates:

    it is more likely to be a cognate, since the two elements of the name, "vald-" and "mar" are perfectly good Germanic roots:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Etymology[edit]

    Old High German waltan (“power”) + māri (“famous”); a cognate of Slavonic Vladimir, merged with Scandinavian Valdemar.

    The word "vald-" or "wald-". occurs in Scandinavian names that are in no way Slavic, eg Rognvald.

    The root "wald-" also occurs in Old English, for example in the title "Bretwalda" = ruler of Britain, which was born by an English king who ruled over all the other kings, both English and British.

    Finally, there is the modern German word "Verwaltung" = administration, which contains the root "wald-" or "vald-", in its High German form.

    The Germanic "vald'" and the Slavonic "vlad-" or "volod-" are parallel forms derived from Proto-Indo-European, and neither is borrowed from the other.

    In the same way as the Germanic "gard-" (eg English "yard") and Slavonic "grad-" or "gorod-" are parallel forms derived from a common ancestor (and cognate with Latin "hortus").
    So linguists found an etymological explanation to claim that Valdemar is a cognate with Vladimir. But historical sources don't know any Valdemars before 1131, and they say that he was named after his grandfather. Etymological explanation is a modern theory invented to establish linguistic origins. By contrast Knytlinga Saga is a primary source, and it claims that Valdemar derived from Slavic name Vladimir.

    Slavic etymology of Vladimir is as good as Germanic of Valdemar.

    Both names have their meanings in respectively Slavic and Germanic languages. But... no Valdemar had ever lived before 1131, when Valdemar I (named after Vladimir II) was born. So historical evidence suggests that those were NOT cognates, but instead Vladimir gave rise to Valdemar.

    In other words - they could be Indo-European cognates, but most likely weren't (not in this case).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-26-2015 at 08:11 PM.

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    There is a similar confusion with name Atilla - whether it was Gothic or Hunnic.

    About a recent (2015) publication about the name "Attila":

    http://www.ejournals.eu/SEC/2015/Issue-3/art/4470/

    "The present paper deals with Attila, the name of the famous king of the Huns. For a long while it has been considered Gothic, meaning ‘little father’. This paper will cast doubt upon this explanation and will suggest a Hunnic origin of Attila with the content ‘horseman’."

    A recently published article casts doubt on the Germanic origin of the name Attila, "The Gothic origin of the name Attila is questionable. It is at least as likely to be of Hunnic origin." and points out that the word "atta" is a migratory term for "father/forefather" common in multiple languages including many Turkic languages. The article also indicates that Attila's name could have originated from Turkic/Mongolian word for horse - "at, adyy/agta", but also states that "Of course we do not know how the name sounded in the language of the Huns. Sometime, somewhere, somehow a proto-form like *agtala- changed to *attila. We cannot tell if the assimilation of gt to tt, and/or if loss of a final consonant took place in Hunnic or if these changes were part of the adaptation process into Latin, Gothic and Greek...Truly, our knowledge of the Hunnic language is almost zero. One can only guess a solution to this riddle of Attila's name..."
    And the description of Attila as a person by Priscus of Panium:

    http://www29.homepage.villanova.edu/...as/embassy.htm

    "(...) He was short of stature with a broad chest, massive head, and small eyes. His beard was thin and sprinkled with grey, his nose flat, and his complexion swarthy, showing thus the signs of his origins. (...)"

    The description doesn't portray him as a "stereotypical" Germanic person.

    But Peter Heather claims that Attila is a Germanic name (though does not suggest that Atilla was of Germanic descent), read below:

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=4MA...idence&f=false



    Here also user Authun explains why he could have a Germanic name:

    http://historum.com/european-history...90?postcount=5

    However, Magnus Snaedal argues for a Hunnic linguistic origin:














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