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Thread: Kvenish origin of Rurikid branch of N1c ???

  1. #31
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    There is Scandinavian I1 found in Ukraine and around Russia in non-Rurikids
    Indeed.

    It could be from Scandinavian bodyguards/warriors/mercenaries serving for Rurikid princes.

    In Poland, near Bodzia, they found a grave of a 25-30 years old warrior (his Y-DNA haplogroup was I1), who died from a head wound inflicted by a sword, and was buried with a belt showing without a doubt that he was one of bodyguards of Sviatopolk I the Accursed (who died in year 1019):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatopolk_I_of_Kiev

    This belt has a two-pronged spear - Tamga of Sviatopolk I - on it:

    http://www.polskieradio.pl/3f7a359f-...14a27cb89.file



    How did that bodyguard of Sviatopolk found himself in Poland? This story is also very clear. As we know, Sviatopolk was expelled from Kiev by Yaroslav the Wise and fled towards Poland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviato...mestic_sources

    Obviously Sviatopolk was not escaping from Kiev to Poland alone, but with a number of his boydguards and supporters. The warrior buried in Bodzia is undoubtedly one of them. Why did Sviatopolk escape to Poland and not elsehwere? Because he was a son-in-law of Polish king - Boleslav I.

    And it was Boleslav I who enthroned Sviatopolk in 1018, after invading Kievan Rus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Bug

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesł...cession_crisis

    If only all of archaeological findings had such perfect historical contexts!

    =============================

    Strontium isotope ratios from tooth enamel of Bodzia warrior with I1 haplogroup suggest, that he was probably raised as a child in Russia. But his ancestors could have indeed come from Scandinavia.

    Isotope ratios point at Russia as the place where he spent childhood (and possibly was born).

    Which confirms that he fled to Poland as one of Sviatopolk's supporters expelled by Yaroslav.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-26-2015 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I understand. But even if N1c was not the "original Rurik", then something from the remaining 32% had to be. It is simply impossible that among 191 "family tree" descendants of Rurik, not even a single one is his real biological descendant due to non-paternal events. That would so nonsensical that just hilarious.

    And not a single U106, Z284 or I1 appeared among all the 191 tested descendants, IIRC. Of course Rurikid N1c could be from Sweden or from coastal Finland, but IMO not from ethnic Swedes. I mean, that lineage could be assimilated into Swedish ethnos by that time, but originally it was rather Finnic or even Balt.



    But you doubt only the name of the founder of the dynasty, or entire story on his origin ???
    I have no problem with N1c per se. I would like to see it confirmed a little better of course. As far as this sort of thing ("royal succession stuff") is concerned. I have absolutely no doubt that the Rus dynasty was founded by Ingvar/Igor sometime in the 930's, and have no information as to his possible relationship with previous historical attested rulers of Kyiv. Including the Helgi/"Oleg" of 911. (Never mind the Helgi of 943, or that of the 9th century). A test from the 11th c. would be perfect.=== As for Rurik, I do consider him an early 12th century invention, borrowed from the lore of the Galician Rostislavichi (stemming from Yaroslav's oldest son who predeceased his father thus rendering the grandsons ineligible for the K. throne). The sequence Rurik--Igor concocted by Nestor is pure fiction I think. Just like his "Danubian homeland" for the Slavs. But these are distinct issues from your N1c. I don't think your theory would suffer much by Rurik's disappearance.

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  4. #33
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    Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

    So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

    Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

    Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):



    BTW:

    In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

    ====================

    Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-09-2016 at 03:17 PM.

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  6. #34
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    No need to look so deep (as in 8-10 thousands years ago) for Rurik's clade.

    I think Rurik's great.... grand daddy arrived to Central Sweden with Net Ware culture somewhere ~500 bce.:
    11b0tci.jpg

    Possibly this is also related to Malaren axes phenomenon that links Central Sweden, Finland, Baltics c.a. 500 bce (which is ~ when all those lines under L550+, including Baltic one, seem to originate).
    Who knows maybe those axes were moulded by Rurik's great ... great daddies in Central Sweden and same axes by Gediminas' great... great daddies in Lithuania. Some originally Finno-Ugric smiths (traders, shamans, warriors?) who got "culturally appropriated" by their respective Norse and Baltic hosts.

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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

    So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

    Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

    Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):



    BTW:

    In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

    ====================

    Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:

    I think that if we are to tie Kvens definitely to "Rurik", we would need to come closer to the present than 700 BC. Also, we might need to look more south...

    Kvenland that was referred to by Othere and others is most often placed by Finnish historians and archeologists around the area of Kyrö River (inland from town of Vaasa on the Finnish west coast). This area had its golden age during the Merovingian period and had strong ties to the western side of the Bothnian Gulf (which incidentally is called Kven Sea in the old maps and descriptions). Being "serious" scientists, they usual refrain from making very bold predictions but the possibility of Kvenland covering both sides of the Gulf has been presented as a real possibility due to similarity in archeological material. Also the fact that at "Kvarken" between Vaasa and Umea the Gulf is at its narrowest, so when we consider that at that time the sea travel was much faster than over land, it is conceivable that these coasts were part of the same culture/realm.

    By the way, concerning the raids conducted by Kvens on Norway: Othere did not actually say that the Kvens raided HIS home place but Norway in general. For example from Sundsvall one can find routes through rivers and long lakes that can possibly be used to access Trondheim area by using portable boats. Kvens probably used a type of boat called "haapio" which is a very light and resilient boat capable of carrying up to six men with their gear (some earlier researchers have even talked of 10-12 men but this seems as an exaggeration.

    Othere states that Sweden "borders" Kvenland, somewhere north of Uppsala Kvenland would start, although I do not know how far north the land of the Svear would have reached in the 9th century.

    However, this is where the matter get complicated. Around the same time as Othere was accounting his travels, the settlements around Kyrö river were declining and ceased almost altogether in the 10th century. Even though this decline has been lately timed later, for example the ship burial at Kaavontönkkä (a cremated ship of approx. 15 m long containing a man wrapped in bear skin and accompanied by valuable weapons and jewelry) has been carbon dated to the mid 10th instead of Merovingian period as previously thought. Nonetheless, the Kyrö culture (if it was THE Kvenland) ceased to exist at that time. the reasons that have been forwarded range from the opening of Eastern trade route which affected the fur trade from the East (Bjarmia), to the plague, to the extermination by the Tavastians or people from Satakunta ("North-Finland", more from that later). Whatever the cause, the exploitation of the Western Coast of (today's) Finland as well as the Lappland taxing was continued by these more southern Finnic people and the Norwegians continued to call any Finnic speaking people as Kvens (this has continued without break until to this day, when the native Finnish (Kven) speaking minority of Norway is called Kvens. The settlement of Finns (mostly Savonians) in North Sweden was started by Gustav Vasa in the 16th century whereas there are numerous mentions of Kvens in Norwegian documents from the 13th/14th centuries, including mentions of raids, so these are either remnants of "old" Kvenland or references to more southern Finns. To the latter belongs probably the saga including a descriptions of an alliance between a Norwegian lord of the North and the "king of Kvenland" Faravid (Finnish: Kaukomieli) to fight the Karelians and (probably) Novgorodians.

    So, if "Rurik" came from Roslagen it seems unlikely that he was from Kvenland of the 9th century. Also, I believe Swedish sources do not speak of Kvenland but refer to Finland and Tavastland when they talk of their Finnic neighbours, so "Kven" seems to have been a Norwegian term (they preserved "Finn" to Saamis, whereas Swedes used Scridefinne, "skiing Finn", for Saami). There is no proto-Rurikid found in the Northern Sweden, or is there?

    Roslagen was more closely tied to today's Satakunta in Finland. There are mentions of "two Finlands" in some sources and it seems that there was a distinction between North Finland and South Finland, with river Aura (running through Turku) as a border. North Finland and Svealand had close ties and the mainstream history asserts that North Finland was subject to King of Uppsala at least from the early 11th century. Long before that, according to Prof. Unto Salo, Satakunta was organized as a "hundare" (hence the Norwegian mention of King of Kvenland commanding three hundares) and was probably in alliance with King of Uppsala. Further, archeological finds form several graves in the Malaren lake region (including Birka) suggest that the person buried was from Satakunta region, i.e. "North Finland" which, if true, would be evidence of immigration between these two regions. Again, the sea between unites, not divides, the coasts. Unfortunately, to my knowledge those graves have not given any DNA that could be tested...

    I have no knowledge of the ethnic composition of Roslagen in the 9th century but knowing that the close tie between Svealand and North-Finland at that time is an established fact, I would see it as plausible that a person with haplogroup N1c would be present or even leading a group of "Rus", which language he spoke and from which side of the sea he hailed from I cannot say. It is even possible that he was a descendant of "old" Kvenland that had moved south after decline of Kyröjoki culture and we do not really know where the border between Svealand and Kvenland was. Whether everything happened as in the chronicles, I cannot say. Maybe it started as some kind of warrier/trader elite and the story with invitation and everything was invented later...

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  10. #36
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    By the way, a Swedish doctoral dissertation concluded already in 1734 that Österbotten and Västerbotten, Eastern and Western coasts of the Bothnian Gulf respectively, had in the ancient times formed one kingdom. This is the reason the king Charles XI used a title "de Kajaners konung", King of the Kvens. This conclusion might have been based on some subsequently lost oral traditions.

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  12. #37
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    If we return to the genetic issue after sidestepping to the history of Kvenland, we must look into the facts. As far as I know, the current status is that the Rurikid and proto-Rurikid haplotypes stem from the Swedish side but that they are also very common among the Swedish speaking Finns on the coast of Finland.

    Now, the Uusimaa region (sw. Nyland - "New Land") on the south coast was mostly empty in the 12th century. The Swedish settlers generally moved to areas which were not previously settled and Nyland was no exception. Previously it was thought that Nyland was empty due to threat by Vikings (the Eastern trade route passed by its coast) and by other pirates. However, lately this has been disputed and the fact that the area is not very good for agriculture with the Viking age tools led to the abandonment of the area when the Finns adopted agriculture. It was used as a hunting ground by the Tavastians and was not actually completely empty of settlements, either. So, it was ripe for (re-)settlement only in the 12th-13th century and some of the Swedish settlers came from Hälsingland on the East coast of Sweden. Hence the Name Helsinki (Sw. Helsingfors) for the current capital. The original name was Hälsingeby, the village of Hälsinge (people). So, if any of those from Hälsingland were descendants of Finnic inhabitants of Eastern coast of Sweden, Kvenish or not, it would be conceivable that some would be among the settlers, as well.
    Last edited by Kvenlander; 11-20-2016 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Typos corrected

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