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Thread: DF17 in Ireland

  1. #1
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    DF17 in Ireland

    Having worked on a paper trail for over forty years, I've graduated to genetic genealogy in just the last couple of years, and though I find it fascinating and addictive, I'm very certain that I'm not getting nearly as much out of it as I might. Hence this attempt to educate myself.

    My paper trail is very largely based on a paper 'pedigree' written in 1898 which traces my male line back to a John Joyce (Seán Mór Seoighe in Irish), active in north Kerry c.1680. I would, of course, love to bring my DNA side near enough to link up with that trail, but I recognize that may be some way off. In the meantime, though, I want to understand as much of the genetic side of things as I can, in its own right.

    I've tested only with ftDNA so far (kit # 272106), and at 111 markers, I have only one match, MDKA a Shaw from Kildare in the mid 1700s. The name Shaw is a pretty close phonetic match for Seoighe.

    I recently took the P312 backbone test, which has me as R-DF17. This, too, is shared with this Shaw line. In order to push on as far as I can on the DNA side, I've just ordered the Big Y test, and I understand my results for that should come through in about two months. I've already done the Family Finder test, but that hasn't yet resulted in any great clarity.

    So, any observations, comments, suggestions as to what to do next, would be welcome. Forgive me if there are occasional long pauses on my side of any exchanges. That would be while I google frantically, trying to figure my way through all the technical terms that litter this board. I'm an innocent newbie, remember!

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  3. #2
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    If you haven't done so, please join the DF27 project at FTDNA. I would also recommend joining the DF27 Yahoo group. For those of us who have had the BigY done, there is a folder at the Yahoo group where you can post your Bam file, which is a zipped file of your results. Alex Williamson takes the Bam files and runs comparisons. He has a really cool website, where he sorts the results. Please check out his website, ytree.net. There are a number of DF17 results posted there. Of interest to you may be the Irish results. Three with Gaelic derived surnames. It is very interesting.

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  5. #3
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    Thanks for this, Webb! I knew about some of this already, but it's great to get a clear confirmation of what to do, and in what order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    If you haven't done so, please join the DF27 project at FTDNA.
    That would be the "R DF27 and Subclades" project? Done!

    I would also recommend joining the DF27 Yahoo group.
    I'm in!

    For those of us who have had the BigY done, there is a folder at the Yahoo group where you can post your Bam file, which is a zipped file of your results. Alex Williamson takes the Bam files and runs comparisons. He has a really cool website, where he sorts the results. Please check out his website, ytree.net. There are a number of DF17 results posted there. Of interest to you may be the Irish results. Three with Gaelic derived surnames. It is very interesting.
    Yes, reading comments about his site was one of the things that pushed me towards getting the Big Y. Now I'll be all Are we there yet? Are we there yet? until my results arrive.

    I'll head off now and have a look at those Irish results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vertor View Post
    Thanks for this, Webb! I knew about some of this already, but it's great to get a clear confirmation of what to do, and in what order.



    That would be the "R DF27 and Subclades" project? Done!



    I'm in!



    Yes, reading comments about his site was one of the things that pushed me towards getting the Big Y. Now I'll be all Are we there yet? Are we there yet? until my results arrive.

    I'll head off now and have a look at those Irish results.
    Ok. Once you have looked at that site, let me know. The next site to look at will be Yfull.com. Alex does his analysis for free. Yfull charges around 50 dollars to analyze your bam file. The other main difference is that Yfull provides dates. They provide snp born on dates and TMRCA dates. The two sites used in conjunction with each other, imo, are the best tool out there. Unfortunately not everyone who is on Alex's tree has submitted their Bam to Yfull for interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vertor View Post
    I've tested only with ftDNA so far (kit # 272106), and at 111 markers, I have only one match, MDKA a Shaw from Kildare in the mid 1700s. The name Shaw is a pretty close phonetic match for Seoighe.
    I assume he's #91302, who joined today, and when I moved him into group C he's next to you. Btw the Hanby guy a couple of rows down shares several of your off-modals, which is usually more telling than GD as such (because it's less likely to be coincidental convergence of numbers that can cycle up and down -- especially on the faster changing markers, with red background color at the top).

    There's a well-known Irish James Joyce; is he one of those Seoighe guys? And DF17+? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joyce

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Ok. Once you have looked at that site, let me know.
    I think I've found the page you mean there, with the three recognizably Irish names at the bottom.

    The next site to look at will be Yfull.com. Alex does his analysis for free. Yfull charges around 50 dollars to analyze your bam file. The other main difference is that Yfull provides dates. They provide snp born on dates and TMRCA dates. The two sites used in conjunction with each other, imo, are the best tool out there. Unfortunately not everyone who is on Alex's tree has submitted their Bam to Yfull for interpretation.
    Yes, I can see what good tools these are, and I'm looking forward to submitting my own data to both sites. But am I correct in thinking that I can only do so after my Big Y results come through?

  11. #7
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    Yes you need to wait for your Big Y bam file.

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I've tested only with ftDNA so far (kit # 272106), and at 111 markers, I have only one match, MDKA a Shaw from Kildare in the mid 1700s. The name Shaw is a pretty close phonetic match for Seoighe.
    I assume he's #91302, who joined today, and when I moved him into group C he's next to you.
    Yes, that's the one. (I'm assuming you're referring to this page?)

    Btw the Hanby guy a couple of rows down shares several of your off-modals, which is usually more telling than GD as such (because it's less likely to be coincidental convergence of numbers that can cycle up and down -- especially on the faster changing markers, with red background color at the top).
    (GD is Genetic Distance, yes?) Now, this sort of observation is a complete revelation to me. I'd always just taken the GD as given by ftDNA as gospel as regards the possible strength of a genetic connection, but you appear to be suggesting that one might get better results by manually checking for oneself? But where do I find the modal for that haplotype, so that I can do that comparison? Thank you, incidentally, for directing me to look at the colour coding at the top. The whole page is so densely packed with information, I'd not got around to noticing that.

    There's a well-known Irish James Joyce; is he one of those Seoighe guys? And DF17+? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joyce
    Hmmmph! Well, yes and no. JJ was indeed a Seoighe, and his paper-trail goes back to the town of Fermoy in County Cork. The Michael Joyce who wrote that 'pedigree' I referred to above, came from Glenosheen in east Limerick, only about fifteen miles north of Fermoy as the crow flies. As a result, and since the Joyce/Seoighe name isn't particularly common in that part of Ireland (Joyce country is about 150 miles further north again, in Connaught), I've always assumed a fairly close relationship between the two lines. When the biography of JJ's father was published, about twenty years ago, the first chapter drew heavily on that 'pedigree', and the authors assumed a genetic relationship, but acknowledged they could provide only circumstantial evidence for it. You can see that chapter online here.

    In brief, they hypothesize a common ancestor named John, in one of two generations, who was a wealthy farmer, but have no paper record of such a man. By chance, soon after that book appeared, I came across an independent piece of evidence, to prove his existence, but that merely tightens the net of circumstantial evidence, and doesn't actually clinch it. So, unless and until some known relation of JJ in the male line get's DNA tested, there's no knowing for certain whether JJ was DF17 or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vertor View Post
    I think I've found the page you mean there, with the three recognizably Irish names at the bottom.



    Yes, I can see what good tools these are, and I'm looking forward to submitting my own data to both sites. But am I correct in thinking that I can only do so after my Big Y results come through?
    That is the page. You will notice that at the top of the block for the three Irish gents and the Scot are Burness, another Scot, and the two 1K Genomes kits. One is Puerto Rican and the other Italian. These two are anonymous. If you look at YFull's tree you will find these three kits as well, with a TMRCA listed as 2300 ybp. This is around 285 b.c. On Alex's tree you will see the German, Menge shares a few snps with these three. Then under him Durkin and Meehan share a large number of private snps, then under them you have Mulvihill and McDonald, the Scot. I am thinking you might cluster some where in this group. You won't know for sure until your results come back in, of course. But because of YFull's analysis, you know this line starts around 285 b.c. in Europe, but because none of the rest have submitted results to Yfull, you have no idea about dates below. If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.

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  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    If you end up clustering with Meehan, Durkin, and Mulvihill, I think I would try contacting all of them, including Menge. If you could persuade them all to submit their bams to Yfull, you would have a very good estimation of common ancestors from 285 b.c. until at least the point where Mulvihill and McDonald splits from the other two Irish samples.
    Just in case it's of any use or relevance, I'll insert this from last year on a different DF17 thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    A couple of weekends ago I met Mike Durkin at the I4GG conference in Maryland. We got to discuss DF17 very casually, in my case from fuzzy memory rather than firm knowledge or conviction; and btw we had lunch with Thomas Krahn
    He was interested enough to spend a weekend at a genetic genealogy conference, so I expect he'd be willing to do the YFull stuff (though as far as I know, he hasn't yet).
    And btw another one of the guys on your short list posts here, as Breckenheimer. His ancestor was German; he's more of a Texian.
    Last edited by razyn; 08-30-2015 at 08:16 PM.

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