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Thread: New: South Indian Karnataka Result (23andme)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    My understanding is that Indo-Aryans were strictly R1a1a, no other Y haplogroups qualifies for that, while the H1a is Indian Tribals' haplogroup.
    The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

    aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    You don't need to wonder about your H2 much, I think you need to test further to see what kind of a H you actually are, as there is no shortage of H among Brahmins especially the H1a. My understanding is that Indo-Aryans were strictly R1a1a, no other Y haplogroups qualifies for that, while the H1a is Indian Tribals' haplogroup.
    Your confusing Proto Indo Iranians with Indo Aryans. While its a marker associated with Indo Iranians, there would be a diversity of Y dna. The Kalash/Nuristani would be a good example of that. They show a variety of Y dna lineages.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

    aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.
    R1a-Z93/Z94 is deeply tied to Indo-Iranians and it is likely that almost all Proto-Indo-Iranians belonged to this lineage but nevertheless I think the truth is probably a bit more complicated. I remember that haplogroup I was found among some Tajiks and even among one Pashtun so who knows maybe some of them were even haplogroup I carriers. Another possible line among some early Indo-Iranians is R1b-Z2103, which was maybe picked from Yamnaya/Afanasevo groups assimilated by steppe Indo-Iranians and it is quite frequent today among Turkmens, some Iranian groups and even among some Pamiri populations. But after the arrival of Indo-Iranians in BMAC and further south things got very complicated and almost everything could be absorbed and spread by late Proto-Indo-Iranians.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 09-13-2015 at 09:35 PM.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

    aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.
    Of the 5 Nuristani samples , 3 were R1a , 1 was R2 and one was J2. The Kalash samples had more variety with South Asian Y dna lineages L and H1 being dominant followed by R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Of the 5 Nuristani samples , 3 were R1a , 1 was R2 and one was J2. The Kalash samples had more variety with South Asian Y dna lineages L and H1 being dominant followed by R1a.
    They are not Proto-Indo-Iranians and a modern population. Most of their non-R1a Y-DNA is local and absorbed from older inhabitants. We should also remember that such kind of small populations are very vulnerable for founder effects and bottlenecks. We need ancient DNA to know which Y-DNA lineages beside of R1a-Z93 were carried by Proto-Indo-Iranians. The best candidates for that are in my opinion R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93-, Q and maybe I but for later Indo-Iranians, which mixed with BMACs and IVCs, basically everything is possible.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 09-13-2015 at 10:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Your confusing Proto Indo Iranians with Indo Aryans. While its a marker associated with Indo Iranians, there would be a diversity of Y dna. The Kalash/Nuristani would be a good example of that. They show a variety of Y dna lineages.
    No, it is you who is confused, I said Indo-Aryans not Indo-Iranians, even the Mittanies who ventured into Khabur River area were only R1a1a but a different branch closer to Pashtuns L657- or it was mixed with the regular Indo-Aryan branch L657+. Their varna system was so strict that it allowed no outsiders, a closed system with no back door entries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    The proto-Indo-Iranians were wholly R1a1a-Z93 from the look of things (via Sintashta, Andronovo and Pazyryk). Going by the P-C steppe theory, it's probable in my opinion that some other secondary subclades on the paternal front were picked up following the steppe intrusions south (Y-DNA's L1c? J2? G2a/c? R2a?). Some H1a and/or H2 could fit the bill here, also. By this point, the proto-language had already differentiated into sub-branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Nuristani). Of course, the same thing could have happened maternally.

    aDNA from Europe has surprised us immensely; few would have predicted Y-DNA C1a-V20 was an important European HG lineage for instance. Saying that, Y-DNA I certainly seems "Old European" and Y-DNA G2a is predominantly tied to the earliest farming waves there. While we cannot completely predict the outcomes, I think modern distributions should give us a rough idea of what to expect.
    I don't think that is the case, even the brother haplogroup R1b was not part of them, Tribes, Clans is what we are looking at here, strict rules observed closely, non conformers ousted once for ever.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    I don't think that is the case, even the brother haplogroup R1b was not part of them, Tribes, Clans is what we are looking at here, strict rules observed closely, non conformers ousted once for ever.
    Steppe Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 appears to have been "the" steppe marker in Yamnaya. Another subclade unrelated to either R1a and R1b (I2a) was also found among them. We also have Y-DNA J2 in the Iron Age Altai.

    These findings alone give us confidence in expecting some additional inputs along the way. I will be very surprised to see something like the Tazabag'yab culture ending up being >90% R1a1a-Z93. Then again, Coldmountains' points are well received and fully justified given the very small number of Sintashta Y-DNA samples we currently have (a handful of R1a1a's do not exclude other subclades also being present). It could be possible for Sintashta to be predominantly R1a1a, with a spectrum of minority lineages also present. Derivative cultures in the Andronovo horizon might have their own distinct frequencies due to genetic drift. This ties in to your point regarding clan structures. We'll have to see where the data points towards.
    Last edited by DMXX; 09-20-2015 at 04:27 PM. Reason: retroactive correction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    They are not Proto-Indo-Iranians and a modern population. Most of their non-R1a Y-DNA is local and absorbed from older inhabitants. We should also remember that such kind of small populations are very vulnerable for founder effects and bottlenecks. We need ancient DNA to know which Y-DNA lineages beside of R1a-Z93 were carried by Proto-Indo-Iranians.
    Obviously they are not. But they are Bronze age relic populations and give a snapshot of what was going on in the region. So from the perspective of NW South Asians/ SC Asians they do hold a lot of importance . It would be great to have genomes from the region. Where genetics is lacking , archaeology and skull remains helps fill the gaps. Looking at Dr Muhammad Zahir's latest work on Gandhara Grave culture esp in the Chitral region gives a clearer picture of what was going on.

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    No, it is you who is confused, I said Indo-Aryans not Indo-Iranians, even the Mittanies who ventured into Khabur River area were only R1a1a but a different branch closer to Pashtuns L657- or it was mixed with the regular Indo-Aryan branch L657+. Their varna system was so strict that it allowed no outsiders, a closed system with no back door entries.
    Your missing the point. The Indo Aryans emerging out of the BMAC were a composite group, they are not carrying 1 marker but others too ( the ones DMXX mentioned)
    The Mittani were a short lived dynasty , there are no genome results or Y dna results from them. Where are you getting your facts from?
    The Varna system arose from the Vedic civilization . The Mittani ruled over Hurrians, the Varna system is not present in Near Eastern societies.

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