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Thread: Hephtalite legacy in India

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by bol_nat View Post
    Did pashtuns adopt Khan title after being in army of Khilji turks?
    Khan is the title Turkic and Mongol people used for their Kings. Khan means King and Khagan means King of Kings (kind of like Raja means King and the title used by Jamwal kings Raja-e-Rajgan meaning King of Kings). Now if I remember correctly, the first 'Khanates' or 'Khaganates' were formed by the ancestors of the Mongols but those were also soon followed by the establishment of Turkic ones.

    And since Afghanistan has mostly been ruled by peoples of Turkic origin, if I were a betting man I would place my bets on them for making the title more common there. Khiljis, Ghauris, Timurids and even Mongols could be the suspects. I cannot remember of any Pushtoon using the title before the advent of Lodhis right now but if I do, I will update this message. It could be interesting to research who could be the first Pushtoons to use the last name. Parasar might know. It also becomes difficult because many Pushtoons in Pakistan don't keep proper genealogical records from what I have observed.

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  3. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Mera ghar ki malak ka nam Arshad Malkbe?
    Second to last letter is "ha" ھ or ہ -- but is usually do chasma ha is what it's referring to (the 2-'eyed' one)... Urdu prefers to write "ha" like what you see written ها when connected with certain letters. Now I can't render the same character in Urdu again.. it's writing it the normal "do-chasma" way lol.. oh well you get the idea.
    The last latter is bari ya ے
    Mera ghar ky (not kee) maalik ka naam Arshad mulik hy.
    When ya is written like that (bari ya) it doesn't act like an -eeee (choti ya ی) sound, it becomes a ayyyy sound to the letter before it (but not always...) so the kaaf+yaa became "ky/kai" and the haa+yaa became "hy/hai".
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 02-17-2018 at 03:08 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




  4. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Last letters are "haa" ھ or ہ‬ and bari ya ے
    Mera ghar ky (not kee) maalik ka naam Arshad mulik hy.
    When ya is written like that (bari ya) it doesn't act like an -eeee (choti ya ی) sound, it becomes a ayyyy sound to the letter before it. so the kaaf+yaa became "ky/kai" and the haa+yaa became "hy/hai".
    lol ok, I only know the pashto way of pronouncing when I read the 'Squiggly'. I don't understand choti ya etc properly

    But, I try remembering this

    ي marufa ya - i
    ې majhula ya - e
    ی mulayana ay -y
    ۍ sajena ya -ey
    ی(with hamja) kaddwala ya -ey

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  6. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    lol ok, I only know the pashto way of pronouncing when I read the 'Squiggly'. I don't understand choti ya etc properly

    But, I try remembering this

    ي marufa ya - i
    ې majhula ya - e
    ی mulayana ay -y
    ۍ sajena ya -ey
    ی(with hamja) kaddwala ya -ey
    It is a bit different in Pashto compared to Urdu, especially when it comes to the "let's divert from Perso-Arabic to make our our sounds work" letters. Because each language decides to add an extra dot here or there to mean something arbitrary. So there isn't any set rules. Except I guess three dots on a wau = V. Even in the other regional languages in Pakistan the little symbols to the normal letters make things change a lot. Sindhi has something like 52 letters, and if you try to read it like your read Urdu, you're screwed, lol. You kind have to learn the letters that were formed for a specific language, in each language, separately. In Pashto, the symbol changes on the ya denote much larger range of sounds, much more than for other languages. It's one thing I think anyone notices the first time they look at written Pashto, how many kinds of yaa letters/symbols there are.

    Probably kakiasumi has more knowledge with this, as he may be able to read some Pashto.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 02-17-2018 at 03:19 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  8. #325
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    In Arabic;
    Malik = King, Maalik=Owner

    With regards to Khan it is used from W Asia to S Asia.

    Some notable historical Kurds with "Khan" name:


    Ganj Ali Khan - Mid 1500s
    - Friend of Shah Abbas
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganj_Ali_Khan


    Ali Mardan Khan - late 1500s - Safavid Governor of Kandahar
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mardan_Khan

    Bedir Khan - 1803

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedr_Khan_Bey


    Karim Khan Zand - Founder of Zand Dynasty - early 1700s
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karim_Khan_Zand


    Shir Khan
    Karim Khan
    Daud Khan
    https://books.google.com/books?id=dg...20khan&f=false


    Edit: Also city name in Iraqi Kurdistan, Darbandi Khan written as Darbandikhan
    Last edited by Kurd; 02-17-2018 at 03:27 AM.

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  10. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    It is a bit different in Pashto compared to Urdu, especially when it comes to the "let's divert from Perso-Arabic to make our our sounds work" letters. Because each language decides to add an extra dot here or there to mean something arbitrary. So there isn't any set rules. Except I guess three dots on a wau = V. Even in the other regional languages in Pakistan the little symbols to the normal letters make things change a lot. Sindhi has something like 52 letters, and if you try to read it like your read Urdu, you're screwed, lol. You kind have to learn the letters that were formed for a specific language, in each language, separately. In Pashto, the symbol changes on the ya denote much larger range of sounds, much more than for other languages. It's one thing I think anyone notices the first time they look at written Pashto, how many kinds of yaa letters/symbols there are.

    Probably kakiasumi has more knowledge with this, as he may be able to read some Pashto.
    you mean the Fatah, kasra dumma stuff? yeah, I try looking for those, written farsi that I read just assumes the sound at times. I always read like a kid, make out the actual word and re-read it smh
    Yeah, Pashto has many sounds and dialects so we make different sound on SH, KH, G

    ش - SH
    س - S
    ښ SH xh
    ږ ze ga
    ډ dda retroflex
    ټ tta retroflex
    ړ rda retroflex
    ڼ nuddn retroflex

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  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Khan is the lastname many people who claim/suspect "Pashtun" (esp. South Asians) descent use at large.

    I don't care what tribe names you use, it doesn't matter. Many Baloch use ... zai as their tribal name, they aren't Pashtun, they are Baloch. Sounds like more of an emotional melodrama over why someone who ain't following Pashtun culture should be Pashtun because they belong to some bonafide lineage. Pashtun ethnic identity without the language and culture, is like a person without a limb, unless they were deaf/dumb why wound't they wanna speak the language? It defines their cultural identity, many Pashtuns are bilingual/multilingual why not speak the language and follow the culture, if you care to identify as a Pashtun because that's what being a Pashtun is all about?


    Your ethnic roots forgetting candidate: his ethnic identity would be just Afghan/Pakistani... where is that root forgetting candidate from? unless he is in anthrogenica or 23&me or ... and has to explain about his roots that too if he wishes to explain say to someone like Khanabadoshi, and for that he will waste his precious time asking his parents, sounds absurd since he forgot his roots already why bother? Even a Pathan bengali will say that he is a Pashtun, Pashtun empires were there and ofc some lineages might be true hence their ethnic background is Pashtun/Pathan by default just like the root forgetting bonafide bloke.
    Scenario: the Bengali person’s ancestsor didn’t continue the Pashtun culture. Sounds like heard that story somewhere.:/

    I am done with this bollywood sounding melodrama. You might wanna go to pashtunforums or whatever forums just so that candidate gets valid entry into Pashtunistan central, I told you what my elders taught me, I don't care to sell my viewpoint to you, I am just sharing what I know and was taught.

    Disclaimer: genetics might portray me an a bonafide Pashtun but I ain't a bonafide Pashtun culturally. I respect what the culture stands for as it did since antiquity.
    And sure you can have the last word apparently it means something here for posters like you who are like broken records.

    In Bengal, "Pathan" literally has zero relevance. I have read of Pathans in British journals and such, but have never encountered one who identifies as Pathan. I have though, on one guy who said that one of their long time forefathers was a Pathan or such (belongs to a Zamindari family), but would never identify as such, but in the same perspective, you'll also find Bengali Muslims who claim local Hindu heritage like Kayastha, Rajbanghshi etc, more so than Pathans and such.

    The 'Pathan' moniker is mostly restricted to the Hindi Belt, where people do not have a strict ethnic identity, and identify with castes/communities. In their perspective, Pathan is a caste/community, and not really a strict ethnic group since the idea of an ethnic group to them is foreign.

    Only Gujarat outside the Hindi Belt would be an exception, but Gujarat is very "casteist" in nature, and like how Hindu groups form "caste Samaj" for their respective communities, the Muslims form "Jamat". While on the contrary, outside of Assam, Bengal is the least casteist place in the entire Indo-Aryan speaking subcontinent. Especially for Muslims, castes do not form any relevance. Marriage is mostly based on merit/income/love, rather than "khandan", that existed in the 19th/early 20th centuries. Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.

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  14. #328
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    Sometimes I forget I'm a moderator.
    It just occurred to me I should give myself an infraction for going way off topic in a thread dedicated to Hepthalite legacy in India.
    We are sitting here talking about alphabets, Kings, Khans and Jatts.

    Perhaps let's keep this thread true to its namesake and make a new thread for alphabet soup and Lindsey Lohanna's newest musical debut.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  16. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    In Bengal, "Pathan" literally has zero relevance. I have read of Pathans in British journals and such, but have never encountered one who identifies as Pathan. I have though, on one guy who said that one of their long time forefathers was a Pathan or such (belongs to a Zamindari family), but would never identify as such, but in the same perspective, you'll also find Bengali Muslims who claim local Hindu heritage like Kayastha, Rajbanghshi etc, more so than Pathans and such.

    The 'Pathan' moniker is mostly restricted to the Hindi Belt, where people do not have a strict ethnic identity, and identify with castes/communities. In their perspective, Pathan is a caste/community, and not really a strict ethnic group since the idea of an ethnic group to them is foreign.

    Only Gujarat outside the Hindi Belt would be an exception, but Gujarat is very "casteist" in nature, and like how Hindu groups form "caste Samaj" for their respective communities, the Muslims form "Jamat". While on the contrary, outside of Assam, Bengal is the least casteist place in the entire Indo-Aryan speaking subcontinent. Especially for Muslims, castes do not form any relevance. Marriage is mostly based on merit/income/love, rather than "khandan", that existed in the 19th/early 20th centuries. Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.
    Really.. even when it comes to Brahmins?

  17. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Sometimes I forget I'm a moderator.
    It just occurred to me I should give myself an infraction for going way off topic in a thread dedicated to Hepthalite legacy in India.
    We are sitting here talking about alphabets, Kings, Khans and Jatts.

    Perhaps let's keep this thread true to its namesake and make a new thread for alphabet soup and Lindsey Lohanna's newest musical debut.
    LMAO had to kill the fun didnt ya

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