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Thread: The y DNA haplogroup of the Prophet

  1. #151
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    Last edited by KLMDG; 02-28-2021 at 12:26 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibne Sharif View Post
    The Quraysh's progenitor was Fihr ibn Malik, whose full genealogy, according to traditional Arab sources, was the following: Fihr ibn Mālik ibn al-Naḍr ibn Kināna ibn Khuzayma ibn Mudrika ibn Ilyās ibn Muḍar ibn Nizār ibn Maʿadd ibn ʿAdnān. Thus, Fihr belonged to the Kinana tribe and his descent is traced to Adnan, the semi-legendary father of the "northern Arabs". According to the traditional sources, Fihr led the warriors of Kinana and Khuzayma in defense of the Ka'aba, at the time a major pagan sanctuary in Mecca, against tribes from Yemen; however, the sanctuary and the privileges associated with it continued to be in the hands of the Yemeni Khuza'a tribe. The Quraysh gained their name when Qusayy ibn Kilab, a sixth-generation descendant of Fihr ibn Malik, gathered together his kinsmen and took control of the Ka'aba. Prior to this, Fihr's offspring lived in scattered, nomadic groups among their Kinana relatives. (Credit of text goes to Wikipedia.)

    Now think on the word "Northern Arabs" VS the "Southern Arabs" and correlate the present with G VS J1.
    Attachment 43505
    you need to realize that our line (J1-L858) is northern ... same goes for its ancestor lines + as well as FGC11 which dominates the Bedioun population in Saudi Arabia
    not southern ..
    regardless, your haplogroup arrived into the Peninsula in post-islamic era (centuries after the conquest), it doesn't fit the time of Ali R.A let alone the narrative of Ismael arriving thousands of years ago at all , also it has 0 Arabian tribes in it especially in Najd and Hejaz

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  4. #153
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    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...lf/dna-results

    Check it out you shall know how many Tribes are there on G and how old they are!!

  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibne Sharif View Post
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...lf/dna-results

    Check it out you shall know how many Tribes are there on G and how old they are!!
    they are not with your line .. but different lines scattered all over the place under Haplogroup G , not everyone with Arabic name = Arabian (tribal Arab / Bedouin)
    most of Haplogroup G lines from Arabian peninsula are ~800 years old which is when the Mongols invaded Iraq and driven its diverse ethnicities southward seeking refuge amongst the Tribal Arabians (such as these lines in the links below)
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36001/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36006/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-GG313/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-F2885/

    none of them are Nomadic (Bedouin) but city dwellers , and don't composite a tribal cluster like we see under j1-P58 .. but families who don't know a tribal affiliation , or mixed tribal affiliation in recent unrealistic TMRCA age while living in towns (claiming ancestry, so they get married from locals)

    while a tribe that numbered in a million with its pre-islamic name (like Banu Sulaim) are under One line from Hejaz (Saudi Arabia) all the way to Libya with ~1750 ybp line under J-FGC2
    or how tribes of pre-Islamic 'Tayy clustered under J-FGC4421
    and many other examples under J1-P58

    with other relative tribes (oral tradition) carrying other lines under the whole FGC12 tree
    that's what i mean by Arabian tribes clustering together
    Last edited by KLMDG; 04-01-2021 at 03:12 PM.

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  7. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    they are not with your line .. but different lines scattered all over the place under Haplogroup G , not everyone with Arabic name = Arabian (tribal Arab / Bedouin)
    most of Haplogroup G lines from Arabian peninsula are ~800 years old which is when the Mongols invaded Iraq and driven its diverse ethnicities southward seeking refuge amongst the Tribal Arabians (such as these lines in the links below)
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36001/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36006/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-GG313/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-F2885/

    none of them are Nomadic (Bedouin) but city dwellers , and don't composite a tribal cluster like we see under j1-P58 .. but families who don't know a tribal affiliation , or mixed tribal affiliation in recent unrealistic TMRCA age while living in towns (claiming ancestry, so they get married from locals)

    while a tribe that numbered in a million with its pre-islamic name (like Banu Sulaim) are under One line from Hejaz (Saudi Arabia) all the way to Libya with ~1750 ybp line under J-FGC2
    or how tribes of pre-Islamic 'Tayy clustered under J-FGC4421
    and many other examples under J1-P58

    with other relative tribes (oral tradition) carrying other lines under the whole FGC12 tree
    that's what i mean by Arabian tribes clustering together
    FGC4421 can’t be Tayy tribe:
    Tayy tribe was based in Southern Levant / Northern part of Arabian Peninsula, on the border of the levant, and migrated very early to the Levant.
    It was Christian tribe and many of its descendants should be Melkite christians to our day. It also had some converts to Judaism.
    What I see under FGC4421 are mostly Saudis from centre of Saudi Arabia and all are muslims, with no one Christian. This is not consistent with history of Tayy. And all these lines appeared around emergence of Islam or after it. Getting all cousins and brothers tested does not mean that you can claim a tribe by numbers.
    Tayy line should be old, based in the Levant and should be mixed Muslim/Christian
    Last edited by rzak; 04-02-2021 at 11:04 AM.

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  9. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    they are not with your line .. but different lines scattered all over the place under Haplogroup G , not everyone with Arabic name = Arabian (tribal Arab / Bedouin)
    most of Haplogroup G lines from Arabian peninsula are ~800 years old which is when the Mongols invaded Iraq and driven its diverse ethnicities southward seeking refuge amongst the Tribal Arabians (such as these lines in the links below)
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36001/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36006/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-GG313/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-F2885/

    none of them are Nomadic (Bedouin) but city dwellers , and don't composite a tribal cluster like we see under j1-P58 .. but families who don't know a tribal affiliation , or mixed tribal affiliation in recent unrealistic TMRCA age while living in towns (claiming ancestry, so they get married from locals)

    while a tribe that numbered in a million with its pre-islamic name (like Banu Sulaim) are under One line from Hejaz (Saudi Arabia) all the way to Libya with ~1750 ybp line under J-FGC2
    or how tribes of pre-Islamic 'Tayy clustered under J-FGC4421
    and many other examples under J1-P58

    with other relative tribes (oral tradition) carrying other lines under the whole FGC12 tree
    that's what i mean by Arabian tribes clustering together
    To my knowledge, most if not all of gulf Banu Sulaym was fully absorbed into Harb (Qahtanite tribe) quite early one. Harb was one of the major tribes to enter Africa.

    So I'm curious how these Banu Sulaym members were identified and tested, and separated from Harb .It must be especially confusing because members of the Qahtanite (note: not adnanite) Harb are also J1-P58.

    Edit: As I mentioned Harb is a confederation, but even so its original component seems to be J1-958
    Last edited by royaljoker; 04-02-2021 at 09:44 AM.

  10. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    they are not with your line .. but different lines scattered all over the place under Haplogroup G , not everyone with Arabic name = Arabian (tribal Arab / Bedouin)
    most of Haplogroup G lines from Arabian peninsula are ~800 years old which is when the Mongols invaded Iraq and driven its diverse ethnicities southward seeking refuge amongst the Tribal Arabians (such as these lines in the links below)
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36001/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y36006/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-GG313/
    - https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-F2885/

    none of them are Nomadic (Bedouin) but city dwellers , and don't composite a tribal cluster like we see under j1-P58 .. but families who don't know a tribal affiliation , or mixed tribal affiliation in recent unrealistic TMRCA age while living in towns (claiming ancestry, so they get married from locals)

    while a tribe that numbered in a million with its pre-islamic name (like Banu Sulaim) are under One line from Hejaz (Saudi Arabia) all the way to Libya with ~1750 ybp line under J-FGC2
    or how tribes of pre-Islamic 'Tayy clustered under J-FGC4421
    and many other examples under J1-P58

    with other relative tribes (oral tradition) carrying other lines under the whole FGC12 tree
    that's what i mean by Arabian tribes clustering together
    Banu Hashim were city dwellers, the city of Makkah surrounded by the Bedouin Arab tribes used to call them Arab Mustaareba (Arabized People). This further substantiate the arguments in favour of G being a minor Haplogroup among the Arab Baaida (pure Arabs} or the modern day overwhelming presence of J1-P58 prevalaince in the Bedouin tribes.

  11. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by rzak View Post
    FGC4421 canít be Tayy tribe:
    Tayy tribe was based in Southern Levant / Northern part of Arabian Peninsula, on the border of the levant, and migrated very early to the Levant.
    It was Christian tribe and many of its descendants should be Melkite christians to our day. It also had some converts to Judaism.
    What I see under FGC4421 are mostly Saudis from centre of Saudi Arabia and all are muslims, with no one Christian. This is not consistent with history of Tayy. And all these lines appeared around emergence of Islam or after it. Getting all cousins and brothers tested does not mean that you can claim a tribe by numbers.
    Tayy line should be old, based in the Levant and should be mixed Muslim/Christian
    Jabal (mountain) Tayy , is Jabal Shammar today (city of Ha'il) that's where they have always lived !
    Tayy tribes are Shammar , Bani Sakhr in Jordan , Bani Lam , Bani Khalid
    these are Tayy tribes

    and they are indeed clustered under FGC4421

    don't be like those "we wuz kangz" please. Tayy tribes still exist today, and Shammar's accent carries the tongue of Tayy .. and their Jabal is in city of Ha'il which is Jabal Shammar today
    and they all clustered under FGC4421 with other tribes i mentioned above !

    if Shammar + Bani Sakhir + Banu Lam , who share one Y-DNA aren't the continuation of Tayy as it is known in history books
    then what Y-DNA is in your opinion ? and what are the tribes that carry your suggested Y-DNA ? i am curious
    Last edited by KLMDG; 04-03-2021 at 12:16 AM.

  12. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibne Sharif View Post
    Banu Hashim were city dwellers, the city of Makkah surrounded by the Bedouin Arab tribes used to call them Arab Mustaareba (Arabized People). This further substantiate the arguments in favour of G being a minor Haplogroup among the Arab Baaida (pure Arabs} or the modern day overwhelming presence of J1-P58 prevalaince in the Bedouin tribes.
    by "city dwellers" i mean our brothers whom are non-Arabians .. we say it in a nice way so nobody get insulted
    with all respect i don't think you are from Saudi Arabia .. otherwise you would have known what i meant by that

    but know that, even those living in Cities like Thaqif and Zahran and others are called "Badu" even if they indeed live in Cities and have always been since Pre-Islamic times

    you can clearly know by the accent and the culture that this is Arabian Saudi .. or not
    and we know the names of families with no Tribal Affiliation . or broken chain of ancestry

    and know that there was indeed a big wave of migration form Iraq to Najd ~800 years ago when the Mongols invaded and burnt Baghdad , you can see the results as i mentioned in my previous reply

  13. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    Jabal (mountain) Tayy , is Jabal Shammar today (city of Ha'il) that's where they have always lived !
    Tayy tribes are Shammar , Bani Sakhr in Jordan , Bani Lam , Bani Khalid
    these are Tayy tribes

    and they are indeed clustered under FGC4421

    don't be like those "we wuz kangz" please. Tayy tribes still exist today, and Shammar's accent carries the tongue of Tayy .. and their Jabal is in city of Ha'il which is Jabal Shammar today
    and they all clustered under FGC4421 with other tribes i mentioned above !

    if Shammar + Bani Sakhir + Banu Lam , who share one Y-DNA aren't the continuation of Tayy as it is known in history books
    then what Y-DNA is in your opinion ? and what are the tribes that carry your suggested Y-DNA ? i am curious
    All of above don’t prove anything
    1- Tayy is not Shammar. Shammar is a confederation of what was lift of Tayy tribe (after they migrated to the Levant) with other small tribes in Arabian peninsula. So Shammar would have several different genetic signatures. Hence we would find few Tayy in Shammar of today. The true Tayy in Shammar of today would be an old clade, but surely not FGC4421.
    2- What you said about Hail everybody knows. And everybody knows that Tayy left it long time ago. Very few Tayys who stayed there were jointed by other small tribes and they were called Shammar. Hence Shammar does not represent Tayy. If you find Shammar people who match with christians 2000 years ago, these would be the true descendants of Tayy. If you find Tayys who match with christians 2000 years ago, those would be the true Tayys.
    3- there are many tribes with name of bani Sakhir. The fact that their Haplogroup is FGC4421 would mean this is not Tayy’s Haplogroup
    4- As I said, having all brothers and cousins tested does not mean the tribe is theirs. We are speaking about tribe that existed 2000 or may be more years ago not 200 or 600 years ago.
    5- The Tayy line is second to Ali's line, where imposters (or NPE) tried, are trying and will try to affiliate themselves to it for questions of prestige. To get all cousins in the last 600 years tested does not prove a thing. We need a PATTERN like the one we see in L859.
    6- I am sure that Banu Sakher or Babu Lam members are found under every haplogroup. Do they have Christian matches in the last 3000 years? I am sure they do not.
    Last edited by rzak; 04-03-2021 at 12:00 PM.

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