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Thread: YFull interpretation services, analysis and tree support

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    YFull interpretation services, analysis and tree support

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I am not sure how Yfull got into this but they are far behind for the subclades I work with the most.
    I am very appreciative of citizen scientists' efforts in R-P312 and R-U106, but the human race is far larger than those two specific clades. I mentioned YFull because I know of no other comprehensive, up-to-date Y-DNA haplotree.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 09-25-2015 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I am very appreciative of citizen scientists' efforts in R-P312 and R-U106, but the human race is far larger than those two specific clades. I mentioned YFull because I know of no other comprehensive, up-to-date Y-DNA haplotree.
    The YFull tree is not to up-to-date, though, not even close. It's like every other tree, some branching is in good shape some is not. To boot, I think they only consider NGS tested BAM files... ironic, given this conversation.

    I think if you truly want comprehensive, you'll have to work with FTDNA, warts and all. I know, I know; Razyn and you will cite the molasses and decades problem. Don't forget, you saw your pack this year and you are skeptical of an R1b-DF27 Pack this year.

    Umm... this seems to happen all over R1b forums. Folks wonder why such focus on R1b in an R1b forum.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-25-2015 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    The YFull tree is not to up-to-date, though, not even close.[/B].
    It is as up to date as customers provide. It is true that some administrators are aggressively discouraging their project members from submitting BAM files to YFull. The result is a lack of development in those branches of the haplotree.

    Once again I must emphasize that a haplotree that covers only one clade of one haplogroup is of much less value to the world as a whole, and can in fact exacerbate the suffocating bias already prevalent in academic research. Unless/until someone provides a genuine competitive alternative, it is to everyone's advantage to submit BAM files to YFull in addition to any analysis performed by administrators.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 09-25-2015 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I am not sure how Yfull got into this but they are far behind for the subclades I work with the most.
    Have you asked the people in 'the subclades you work with most' to support their work which is independent of the testing cos? I browse the L513 forum and don't recall you mentioning it. Nor in M222 forums.

    If you really want what you describe as a system of record they are more independent than having it at an actual testing co. It would be even better if it was non-commercial I agree but I don't see any unpaid person stepping up to the plate to code one.

    I believe there is an L21 group at YFull with a large number of admins (15) and 242 members. Everyone who is anyone, it would seem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    It would be even better if it was non-commercial I agree but I don't see any unpaid person stepping up to the plate to code one.
    ISOGG is an excellent example of how a purely volunteer effort cannot possibly keep up with the continuing SNP tsunami across all clades and haplogroups.

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    YFull interpretation services, analysis and tree support

    There are people who like to advocate the benefits of YFull, which is fine. I setup this topic to facilitate that.

    [EDIT: I just took the initiative to start this thread to help those who want to focus on YFull trees, etc.

    It is my understanding, they call their tree an "experimental" tree. That doesn't mean it is not very accurate, though.]
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-25-2015 at 02:49 PM.

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    Why did Yfull come up in this discussion again? Do you guys want to start up a thread on YFull, go ahead?

    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    Have you asked the people in 'the subclades you work with most' to support their work which is independent of the testing cos? I browse the L513 forum and don't recall you mentioning it. Nor in M222 forums.
    We have discussed YFull and FGC interpretations both on L513 and we have people that use both. The truth is that with Alex Williamson's Big Tree, we have outstanding phylogenetic analysis for free. I'm not sure how many trees we need and I invest my time to facilitate what I think is most productive. I am the person who contacts almost everyone in L21 to get their Big Y raw results and get them shared on the yahoo group so Alex can get them. We have over 1,100 Big Y results shared via this method. It takes a lot of my time. I personally have had a FGC interpretation done. I paid although they kindly give us $10 discount.

    I encourage the sharing of FGC results via that mechanism too but not everyone wants to. That's okay. People have preferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    If you really want what you describe as a system of record they are more independent than having it at an actual testing co. It would be even better if it was non-commercial I agree but I don't see any unpaid person stepping up to the plate to code one.
    I see you do read what I write. That's flattering. For genetic genealogy we also need integrated surname, MDKA origin support and more. The nice thing about working with a testing company is this also supports a chain of evidence that is needed for a formal tree. Plus some testing companies support a complete product set, Sanger Sequenced SNP tests, SNP Packs/Panels, Next Generation Sequencing. These are all tied to the same kit #/record which better supports a chain of evidenced needed for a true formal tree.

    I have to keep a cross-reference of FTDNA kit #s, YSEQ IDs, FGC IDs.. and yes I included a column for YFull IDs. I guess you didn't notice that as you track me. BTW, I'm behind on all of that and just about everything. I have to try to prioritize my time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    I believe there is an L21 group at YFull with a large number of admins (15) and 242 members. Everyone who is anyone, it would seem.
    I am a nobody.

    [[[EDIT: This too much fun. I can't resist so I'll copy my note from elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    ... Remember "My name is Nobody"?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYq1PLdT0s

    Shoot, I probably just gave fodder to some other threads who think everyone in R1b dreams of being a cowboy.
    ]]]
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-25-2015 at 03:13 PM.

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    The truth is that with Alex Williamson's Big Tree, we have outstanding phylogenetic analysis for free.
    I can't speak for the rest of it but I do know that the R-S1051 tree variations have been incorrect. I know that non Sanger validated SNP's (that were unreliable) were being posted. I sent a couple of private emails regarding the errors previously and received no reply. No corrections were made after the emails were sent.

    George

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Chandler View Post
    I can't speak for the rest of it but I do know that the R-S1051 tree variations have been incorrect. I know that non Sanger validated SNP's (that were unreliable) were being posted. I sent a couple of private emails regarding the errors previously and received no reply. No corrections were made after the emails were sent.

    George
    What are the changes you are asking for George? I will get them to Alex.

    You realize that Alex's Big Tree is similar to YFull's in that it is experimental and NGS only based, right?

    BTW, I think Alex likes the YFull toolset.

    Perhaps the issue is that Alex is using all variants that are phylogenetically consistent and you want him to remove those that are not easily Sanger Sequenced or may have some other problems, but this is off-topic from YFull.

    Any additional comments on the YFull tree?
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-25-2015 at 04:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I am very appreciative of citizen scientists' efforts in R-P312 and R-U106, but the human race is far larger than those two specific clades. I mentioned YFull because I know of no other comprehensive, up-to-date Y-DNA haplotree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    The YFull tree is not to up-to-date, though, not even close. It's like every other tree, some branching is in good shape some is not. To boot, I think they only consider NGS tested BAM files... ironic, given this conversation.

    I think if you truly want comprehensive, you'll have to work with FTDNA, warts and all. I know, I know; Razyn and you will cite the molasses and decades problem. Don't forget, you saw your pack this year and you are skeptical of an R1b-DF27 Pack this year.

    Umm... this seems to happen all over R1b forums. Folks wonder why such focus on R1b in an R1b forum.
    Let's talk R1b then. lgmayka is correct. The world is a lot bigger than the R1b-P312 and U106 haplogroups. YFull has done a great job with the more basal R1b haplogroups, especially with R1b-Z2103. And YFull cross checks their work with the ISOGG tree. Can't say the same for FTDNA and their haplotree. FTDNA has been ass backwards for the the R1b(U106- P312-) haplogroups for a long time.
    I didn't really buy into this bias towards P312 and L21 until L277 was put downstream of L21 in the FTDNA haplotree last week. I do wonder if they even looked at R1b-Z2103 haplotypes that are L277+ and L277- let alone consult the ISOGG or YFull trees. Better yet, why not consult with haplogroup projects to get the phylogeny straight? The YFull haplotree is very accurate for the early R1b branches but will always be behind our project's haplotree because we have smal. YFull gives the consumer a great user interface so they can better understand their NGS results and a haplotree that is updated monthly with TMRCA's, something to look forward to. It's likely that the YFull haplotree has sold quite a few Big Y tests for FTDNA because people can acutully see the potential of NGS testing with YFull.
    ISOGG did a great job of updating the R1b (P312- U106-) part of the tree during the SNP avalanche.
    Last edited by Joe B; 09-25-2015 at 05:00 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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