Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 83

Thread: Can someone answer something for me really quickly in relation to South Asia?

  1. #1

    Exclamation Can someone answer something for me really quickly in relation to South Asia?

    South Asians are a mix of ANI and ASI according to the latest reports. Some castes have more ANI, and some more ASI. I am talking about a particular caste called the Jats here.

    If a person is 77% ANI and 23% ASI, how Caucasian are they really? As in, what percentage of their genome is Caucasian in nature/related to West Eurasia?

    I read that ASI is at least 50% or more West Eurasian or Caucasian in nature -- is this true? And if so, doesn't it mean that a person with 77% ANI and 23% ASI ancestry is actually 88.5% Caucasian in genetic makeup? I just added 77% ANI + (0.50)*23% ASI = 88.5 to arrive at that number.

    And my other question was, what is the source population of ANI? West Asia or Europe/Georgia? And is it safe to say that Indians are predominantly Caucasian in their genetic makeup? Particularly upper-caste North West Indians? I'd appreciate some input regarding this topic.

    Or is this incorrect? I'd appreciate a simple explanation of this. Thanks a bunch!

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Skyfall For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (09-27-2015)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,743
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    Hi Skyfall,

    The ANI and ASI components were conceptual creations based on Reich et al. 2009, which fit Subcontinental populations as entirely a two-way mix of ANI and ASI.

    The very conceptual basis for this model was always problematic, given human inhabitation of the Subcontinent is extremely old and it is apparent that numerous migrations took place both within and into the Subcontinent. The ANI-ASI model is therefore a major over-simplification of the ancestral signals.

    Ignoring this major caveat for a moment, ANI appears to be mostly West Eurasian in character, with multiple contributions accounting for it. It appears to largely compose of West Asian and European input. ASI seems to have something inherently "indigenous" to the Subcontinent that is related to Ancestral South Eurasian (ASE), a term coined by Davidski (explanation here).

    Beyond this, everything else is speculative at the moment. For instance, ANE appears to be present throughout the Subcontinent at frequencies which exceed 27% (even in tribal groups). Whether this is accounted for in both ANI and ASI is anyone's guess, though the prevailing thought here is that ANI certainly is heavily ANE (given South-Central Asians are predominantly "ANI" as per Reich et al., but are also more ANE than Subcontinental populations in Eurogenes K8).

    For now, in my opinion, the best way of ascertaining individual or group proximity to West Eurasians would be through IBD segments and genetic distance (GD).

    I don't think we have nearly enough data to accurately quantify how close Jatts for instance are to Sicilians f.ex. using ADMIXTURE scores alone, but I do consider it a given based on geography alone that Jatts, Kashmiris and Pathans will be much closer to West Eurasians and will have more West Eurasian ancestry (probably predominantly so) in comparison to north Indian populations for instance. Again, just my opinion.
    Last edited by DMXX; 09-27-2015 at 09:44 PM. Reason: final comment

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     khanabadoshi (09-29-2015),  Kurd (09-28-2015),  MikeWhalen (09-28-2015),  parasar (09-27-2015),  paulgill (09-27-2015),  Sangarius (09-29-2015),  Scarlet Ibis (09-28-2015),  Skyfall (09-28-2015)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,479

    I would put it this way.
    ANI is that part of South Asian ancestry that is shared with West Eurasia.
    ASI is that part of South Asian ancestry that is limited to South Asia and its immediate surroundings.

    Modern South Asian component such as Gedrosia, South Indian etc. cannot be clearly delineated in ASI-ANI terms, since from the initial split 50000 years back between ancestral ASI and ANI lines there are multiple exchanges between descended populations of those lines with only some exceptions such as the Onge who have been isolates since ASI split from them (just after the ASI-ANI split).

    Overlaps seen in a sample set of the genome (one 100-kb ENCODE region-ENr123 hg18: Chr12 38,826,477-38,926,476 - "chose ENr123 because it has a low gene density and should represent a selectively neutral region"). As can be seen about 30% of southern Indian SNPs are not shared by anyone, including northern Indians.
    Last edited by parasar; 09-29-2015 at 01:01 PM.

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (09-28-2015),  khanabadoshi (09-29-2015),  Kurd (09-29-2015),  Megalophias (09-28-2015),  MonkeyDLuffy (01-06-2016),  Sangarius (09-29-2015),  Skyfall (09-28-2015)

  7. #4

    Exclamation So confused....

    Thank you for that informative post. I am glad to hear that the Moorjani et. al model has been proven to be a large oversimplification of the actual nature of admixture in South Asian population groups. So if I read your post correctly, what you are suggesting is the following:

    ANI is a hybrid population that is mostly composed of West Eurasian population groups, namely Europeans and West Asians. ASI, on the other hand, has an indigenous component. My questions are the following:

    1) Does ASI have anything to do with Australoid populations/the Onge/Negritos? I really need this clarified. From what I have read, only isolated tribal groups have some input from Onge-like populations, but the mainland caste populations have no such input. Then why do certain agenda-drive websites keep parroting the same nonsense of all South Asians being admixed with Onge/Australoid/Negrito populations? If ASI is so far separated from the Onge that is is laughable to suggest a link between the two. Lets take a look at the evidence:

    There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that ASI or the South Indian component in Indians is related to modern-day Australoids or even Negritos. These are the fst distances, the most widely used measure of genetic distance between populations, between ASI and other populations:

    Caucasian: 0.077
    Baloch: 0.08
    NE Asian: 0.081
    NE Euro: 0.082
    SE Asian: 0.084
    SW Asian: 0.091
    Siberian: 0.093
    Mediterranean: 0.095
    Beringian: 0.116
    E African: 0.122
    American: 0.128
    W African: 0.142
    Papuan: 0.145
    Pygmy: 0.188
    San: 0.203
    BTW, Here are the Fst distances for your perusal:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WZzNBMEE#gid=2

    If one actually reads this fst distance spreadsheet I posted above (with data from Reich et.al and other Harvard geneticists), it is clear that the South Indian/ASI component is closest to Gedrosia (at 0.081) followed by Caucasus (at 0.082) and East Asian (at 0.085) and Northern European at (0.086). This clearly shows that it’s actually closer to Gedrosia and Caucasus than the East Asian components. Again, the component is closest to Caucasian, Baloch, NE Asian, NE Euro and SE Asian in that order. So its closer to Caucasian populations, followed by a Mongoloid South-East Asian population, followed by a North-Eastern European population.

    In other words, the ASI/South Indian component is actually closer to Caucasian populations than even Mongoloid populations, and it is nowhere near close to Australoid populations. In fact, it’s even closer to North Eastern Europeans than it is to Australoids and closer to West and East African than the Papuan component! So how can one link ASI to Australoid? I keep reading that South Asians are all admixed with Australoid, and it is really frustrating to read that when it is patently false. Even the so-called tribes of India are not all admixed with the Australoid component, and have more in common with each other than they do with the Onge: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6479999
    So what is the truth here?

    2) What % of ASI is Caucasian West Eurasian in nature? On the Harappa Ancestry Project, the "South Indian" component is 50% West Eurasian, and according to this spreasheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dd4/edit?pli=1 castes like the "Bhatia" are only 25% South Indian, which would mean that they are only 12.5% ASI -- the question is what % of this ASI is Caucasian in nature? I just want a breakdown of the South Indian and ASI into Caucasian/Non-Caucasian components. And is this "South Indian" breakdown correct?

    3) Is ANI completely Caucasian in nature, or does it also possess some non-Caucasian elements? I'd appreciate a breakdown for ANI as well.

    4) Do upper-caste NW Indians and South Asians have enough of a Caucasian genetic component that they can be classified as "Caucasian" in terms of which racial branch they belong to, in the grand sense?

    5) If you had to give me a rough % breakdown of how Caucasian a Jatt or a Bhatia that is 25-27% "South Indian" is what would be a rough estimate at this point in time? I know there is a lot of speculation at this point, but we can still hypothesize to a certain extent, and I'd greatly appreciate it if you could perhaps give me a rough number/% for how Caucasian an upper-caste NW Indian really is.

    6) On 23andme, there are many Upper-caste NW Indians who score in the range of 60-95% European, and their Central West Eurasian Caucasoid component is 70-90% in NW India and 50-70 in south india. Like this man: http://i.imgur.com/jVT8gxb.jpg -- if this is the case, then why aren't more people acknowledging this fact, and why aren't upper-caste NW Indians considered Caucasoid? Are these 23andme results anomalies, or incorrect? I'd appreciate an explanation.

    7) ASI is just like the paleolithic ANE influence in Europeans, correct? And since ANE is 45% East-Asian/Native American in composition, and 10% ASE, then wouldn't that mean that Europeans are also admixed with non-Caucasoid populations? Or are Europeans pure Caucasians? I know that Europeans like Northern Russians and Finns have substantial recent East Eurasian admixture (>10%) but wouldn't their ANE genetic component make them even more admixed/Non-Caucasoid? I'd appreciate some information on this.

    Thanks a bunch!
    Last edited by Skyfall; 09-28-2015 at 05:51 PM.

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,649
    Sex
    Location
    Calgary
    Ethnicity
    Anglo
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2-S2361 < L801
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2b(1)
    mtDNA (P)
    H3

    Canada
    The South Indian component in Harappa World is not the same as ASI, which is much more East Asian.

    Phenotypes like "Australoid", Negrito, and Mongoloid are not particularly meaningful when talking about deep genetic ancestry. Ainu and Jehai have quite different phenotypes but are genetically related to each other and to Chinese more than to Europeans and Pygmies.

    Georgians and Chechens are Caucasian. Indians and NW Europeans are not. Caucasoids have Caucasoid skulls, certainly NW Indians are Caucasoids.

    Being racially "Caucasian" is a matter of opinion. Seriously.

    You seem to want to know how West Eurasian people are genetically.

    ANE is not particularly East Asian - arguably not at all.

    Yes South Asians are part Southeast Asian like ASI, whatever they may have looked like - there may have been a number of phenotypes involved. No one is racially pure anywhere anyway.

  9. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Megalophias For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (09-28-2015),  khanabadoshi (09-29-2015),  Kurd (09-29-2015),  MonkeyDLuffy (01-06-2016),  parasar (09-29-2015),  Sangarius (09-29-2015),  Skyfall (09-28-2015)

  10. #6
    I still didn't get the answers to any of my questions. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could clarify my issues aforementioned. What is the South Indian component and how is it related to ASI? And how does ASI breakdown exactly? What % of it is West Eurasian/Caucasian if you will? What about ANI? I've read on here that, in general, the South Indian component seems to be a mix of Neolithic farmer + ANE + Onge-like -- how accurate is this? And how can it have affinities to the Onge based on the evidence I presented above? In general, what is a good estimate for how West Eurasian a high-caste NW Indian is? In terms of an actual %? I'd appreciate it if you could answer my questions above in depth.
    Last edited by Skyfall; 09-28-2015 at 07:23 PM.

  11. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    935
    Sex
    Location
    N/A
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a (R-M124)
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a1a1

    Canada Jammu and Kashmir India
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
    I still didn't get the answers to any of my questions. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could clarify my issues aforementioned. What is the South Indian component and how is it related to ASI? And how does ASI breakdown exactly? What % of it is West Eurasian/Caucasian if you will? What about ANI? I've read on here that, in general, the South Indian component seems to be a mix of Neolithic farmer + ANE + Onge-like -- how accurate is this? And how can it have affinities to the Onge based on the evidence I presented above? In general, what is a good estimate for how West Eurasian a high-caste NW Indian is? In terms of an actual %? I'd appreciate it if you could answer my questions above in depth.
    No one knows how much ASI NW Indians have. The last paper that tried to estimate it was the Moorjani paper. Some say it was an overestimate. According to Eurogenes ANE K7, NW South Asians only have 14-18% ASI. I don't put much stock in these values though.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to bored For This Useful Post:

     Skyfall (09-28-2015)

  13. #8
    Interesting! So the values were a gross overestimate? And what about the breakdown of the "South Indian" component on Harappa? What % of it is West Eurasian/Caucasian? What about ANI? It is completely West Eurasian? And is it safe to say that NW South Asians are "Caucasian" in a racial sense, and belong to the larger "Caucasian" race that stretches from Europe to South Asia? And is the Han are a better proxy than the Onge, how can South Asians have an Onge component? Look at what I posted above, I'd appreciate an answer to my specific questions above. Also, as far as 23and me goes:

    I understand that 23andme has a "South Asian" component when displaying ancestry results; However, despite this, I have seen results in the past where the breakdown of ancestry has been something like this:

    http://i.imgur.com/jVT8gxb.jpg

    This is the chromosome painting of an "Indian man" and it says that 90% of the ancestry is from Europe, and 10% from Asia. From talking to other members on 23andme who are South Asian and have gotten their results back, it seems that most South Asians are scoring in the range of 10-35% Asian, as Razib Khan points out in this post: http://genomesunzipped.org/2011/02/g...nal-genome.php

    Razib states that most South Asians are 75% Caucasian and 25% Asian according to the results generated by 23andme. He also states that this "Asian" value fluctuates depending on region and caste, with it reaching a low of 10% Asian in the Northwest of the subcontinent and reaching a high of 35% in the East and the South. He also cites his own results as a Bangladeshi, stating that he is 57% Caucasian/European and 43% Asian, a result that is highly irregular and a departure from the norm for most South Asians, who are, on average, 25% Asian.

    Does this mean that the average Indian is 75% European/Caucasian and 25% Asian, with some being more Caucasian, particularly in the Northwest upper castes, where the upper castes can be up to 90-95% Caucasian, and some being less Caucasian, particularly in the East and South, where the lower castes can be ~60% Caucasian? Even the National Geographic Geno 2.0 project substantiates these numbers to some extent, stating that the average NW South Asian is 75% Caucasian and 25% SE Asian.

    Are these values correct? It seems like there is a lot of confusion regarding the ancestral components of South Asian populations, and I'd appreciate some insight into this matter. Thanks a bunch!

    Thanks a lot!
    Last edited by Skyfall; 09-28-2015 at 11:08 PM.

  14. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,479

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
    ...

    Caucasian: 0.077
    Baloch: 0.08
    NE Asian: 0.081
    NE Euro: 0.082
    SE Asian: 0.084
    SW Asian: 0.091
    Siberian: 0.093
    Mediterranean: 0.095
    Beringian: 0.116
    E African: 0.122
    American: 0.128
    W African: 0.142
    Papuan: 0.145
    Pygmy: 0.188
    San: 0.203
    ...
    To an extent the distances have the answer.
    Eurasians are all as African as San, Pgymy, etc. but are farthest from modern Africans. Why? One, Eurasians are descended from a small subset of Africans so would be closer to that subset than to all Africans pooled. Second, as significant time has elapsed since separation from Africans, without much exchange, Eurasians and modern Africans are now quite distant.

    We have to consider ASI ANI etc. in that same way. Sure the Onge form a clade with ASI with respect to ANI, but the Onge separated from ASI only a little later from the time they both separated from ANI.

  15. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (09-29-2015),  Kurd (09-29-2015),  Megalophias (09-28-2015),  paulgill (09-29-2015),  Sangarius (09-29-2015),  Varun R (09-29-2015)

  16. #10
    Interesting. So ASI is as far from Onge as Eurasians are from Modern Africans? Essentially what I posted, then. Thanks!

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R1a-Y7 in South Asia
    By Smashorpass in forum R1a-Z93
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 08-29-2021, 04:38 AM
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-21-2020, 09:38 AM
  3. I in South Asia
    By Smashorpass in forum I
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-23-2018, 01:04 AM
  4. Q1b in south asia
    By Lara101 in forum AncestryDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-12-2017, 11:39 AM
  5. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-26-2013, 08:43 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •