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Thread: A problem with Yamna(ya)?

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    A problem with Yamna(ya)?

    Two recent articles suggest that "Corded Ware" did not come from "Yamna" through demic diffusion in most of its territory, but through cultural influence. The main argument is that there are no Yamna burials on the southern Danubian route beyond the Tisza valley in Hungary, and that there is in fact no "northern route" into Central Europe (Yamna burials stop in mid-Moldavia). If this is correct then should a different source be found for that 3rd "genetic" component so uniformly spread in today's Europeans, one not involved in the "Yamna invasion"? Here are the articles:

    https://www.academia.edu/15425433/Th...re_communities


    https://www.academia.edu/11604220/Vi..._Millennium_BC

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    Awesome question.

    On the one hand, Corded Ware, Yamnaya and even aspects of BB are built from similar ideals and symbolic systems, but they represent clearly differentiated, almost oppositional networks.

    On the other the genetic evidence shows they appear to be almost identical, at least CWC & Yamnaya. but at the moment I'm inclined to see it as common post-glacial ancestry rather than derivation of CWC from yamnaya.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 10-02-2015 at 12:32 PM.

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    Post-glacial steppe populations were EHG.

    The mixing process that produced proto-Corded Ware, Afanasievo and Yamnaya, probably around the Don River, took place 5,000-4,000 BC and involved EHG and as yet an unidentified Neolithic group from south of the steppe.

    So Corded Ware doesn't have to derive from Yamnaya, but they obviously come from the same mixing process in the same part of Eastern Europe.

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    I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that Corded Ware was derived from Yamnaya. They were clearly related peoples, and they no doubt encountered and influenced one another, but I don't think anyone has said that Corded Ware evolved from Yamnaya.

    On the other hand, Gimbutas believed that Beaker did evolve from the combination of Vucedol and Yamnaya (The Civilization of the Goddess, p. 401):

    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    4. The warlike and horse-riding Bell Beaker people of the middle and second half of the third millennium B.C., who diffused over western Europe, are likely to have originated from an amalgam of remnants of the Vucedol people with the Yamna colonists (after Wave No. 3) in Yugoslavia and Hungary. Their parent culture is called Vinkovci-Samogyvar. This was the largest and last outmigration, from east-central Europe into western Europe, up to the west Mediterranean and the British Isles, before the onset of a more stable period, and the formation of Bronze Age cultural units.

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    I'll be very interested to see how the GAC samples (mentioned on Euroegenes) come out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Post-glacial steppe populations were EHG.

    The mixing process that produced proto-Corded Ware, Afanasievo and Yamnaya, probably around the Don River, took place 5,000-4,000 BC and involved EHG and as yet an unidentified Neolithic group from south of the steppe.

    So Corded Ware doesn't have to derive from Yamnaya, but they obviously come from the same mixing process in the same part of Eastern Europe.
    As CW doesnt exist until perhaps 2900BC or even 2800BC there is a key missing link in understanding it in terms of archaeological cultures IMO. For generations many have suspected its a steppe-EHF hybrid of some sort so the genetics back this up although of course the steppe part is very dominant. However the detail is still missing IMO. I suspect CW arose in a very confined space where a one-off unique combination of circumstances led to its formation before its great expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Post-glacial steppe populations were EHG.

    The mixing process that produced proto-Corded Ware, Afanasievo and Yamnaya, probably around the Don River, took place 5,000-4,000 BC and involved EHG and as yet an unidentified Neolithic group from south of the steppe.

    So Corded Ware doesn't have to derive from Yamnaya, but they obviously come from the same mixing process in the same part of Eastern Europe.
    One thing I find curious in some posts on Eurogenes is that unlike Yamnaya Afansievo has a little ENF (as does CW). That is surprising.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Awesome question.

    On the one hand, Corded Ware, Yamnaya and even aspects of BB are built from similar ideals and symbolic systems, but they represent clearly differentiated, almost oppositional networks.

    On the other the genetic evidence shows they appear to be almost identical, at least CWC & Yamnaya. but at the moment I'm inclined to see it as common post-glacial ancestry rather than derivation of CWC from yamnaya.
    They all start in different periods in central Europe though with only partial overlap. CW probably doesnt start until Yamnaya was dying out in Old Europe to the south and central European bell beaker doesnt start until at least 250 years after CW began (and when Yamnaya was dead in Old Europe). So there is a chronological aspect to this rather than just parallel oppositional cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    They all start in different periods in central Europe though with only partial overlap. CW probably doesnt start until Yamnaya was dying out in Old Europe to the south and central European bell beaker doesnt start until at least 250 years after CW began (and when Yamnaya was dead in Old Europe). So there is a chronological aspect to this rather than just parallel oppositional cultures.
    True but the current chronology for Yamnaya is 3000-2500 BC, CWC begins ~ 2800 BC. So not too different.
    CWC appears to precede BB in the middle Danube; then coexists (2500-23/2200) then is replaced, before BB itself 'expires' to give way to local Bronze age groups .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    True but the current chronology for Yamnaya is 3000-2500 BC, CWC begins ~ 2800 BC. So not too different.
    CWC appears to precede BB in the middle Danube; then coexists (2500-23/2200) then is replaced, before BB itself 'expires' to give way to local Bronze age groups .
    True but Yamnaya starts in the steppes around 3300BC while CW doesnt exist till c. 2800BC when Yamnaya was dying in Old Europe. That is a 500 year difference which is a substantial chunk of time - 20 or so generations. All I am observing is that the detail of how a culture that didnt start till 500 years later like CW can be so similar to Yamnaya remains unexplained. http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/...peCultures.jpg

    The simplest explanation is that CW derives from late western Yamnaya. Perhaps from Yamnaya elements living at the north-west interface point with farming Europe who adapted to the new non-steppe environment through some mixing with ENF and this gave them them the tools to expand into an alien environment of farming Europe.

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