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Thread: Dark Irish - Original Celts/Gauls

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    Dark Irish - Original Celts/Gauls

    First yes I am related to the person SwedeLover. 2nd that person - my brother - has about as much knowledge of DNA as a mouse trying to do engineering and as subtle as a bull-in-a-china shop. So in short, ignore him.


    Now, I tried this on another forum and decided to ask here as well given as the other forum has some absolute nut whom as per their own DNA are of Germanic descendent but insist they are Celtic Irish. And comes up with some absolute wonderful BS to "prove" they are. Being as I am of Irish roots the guy just gets under my skin because when other posters poke Titanic sized holes in the "research" he/she then gets offensive


    Anyways some of you may have heard of black Irish - fair skin, dark hair, dark eyes.

    I doubt many of you have heard of dark Irish - whom are dark skinned, dark haired, and dark eyed.


    My great grandfather was a dark Irishman. He was dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed - I won't say if they are common or not, as the term is rarely used nowadays, so the average person probably mistakes mix-bloods as being dark Irishmen - and great-granddad is one reason why some of my relatives [including my brother who last year all summer with conservation / outside could have passed for someone from the Mediterranean yet remove the high sun exposure of the summer - winter - and he goes back to pale with a slight hint of a tan] tan rather than burn in the sun.

    Now before people start saying oh some African [slave] mix-blood descendent... my African DNA as per a number of DNA sites is pretty much nonexistent, however, my Spanish / Iberian DNA [and to a smaller extent Italian] is rather high [in fact, as per Geno 2.0 my 2nd reference population is actually Greek which was rather surprising as Greek doesn't even register on other sites].



    Removing the dub of "Celtic" the people themselves are of Mediterranean descendent long before they moved to Germany - Europe and then into the UK. They were, after all, displaced by the Romans and the Romans forefathers. The word Gaul, which is oftentimes applied to the Celts as well, is Roman after all.

    The modern Mediterranean are of Celtic / Roman background [specifically the La Tene Celts] - while the modern European/UKers are Celtic / Viking/German background [La Tene + Hallstatt]. Hence the difference in skin tone / complexion.



    This is my father's forefather.

    My thing is, is if I use dad's DNA the DNA is rarer.

    There is hardly any matches on such sites as 23&me. FTDNA from the Y side matches with 8 other males, and if I am reading the Y "relation" properly we don't share a common relative in over 500 years. His DYS results are typically smaller in number [so older] than the so called Irish modals available in most. And his Y SNPs match only 13 people - including 3 1800s Spanish.

    Now if I use DNA from dad's side - from women whom would have inherited some of the X from the forefather [the dark Irishman] or other male relatives - it turns out there their DNA is almost as rare. I mean despite the fact that this is a VERY old familial clan in Ireland there is actually very little relation to Ireland as per DNA [probably because the DNA samples used on pretty much every site are far more modern - so Viking Irish if you would]. Using FTDNA's mtDNA origins for example on one female relative to his familial clan gives us <0.1% Irish, 0.1% English/UK, and 1% Moldova - of the 56 countries listed her DNA has "hits" with 21 countries [compared to my mum's mtDNA which has some % with every single country] and a number of them have older [Iraq / Latvia] populations.


    So my thing is - everyone says the Celts [or any true descendants] are "dead". Are they, or are the people researching simply looking in the wrong place?

    I mean as said, my familial clan is OLD. Our non-anglicized name is said to have come from a single word in the Gaulish / Celtic language [and really the anglicized version is so off from the non-anglicized it is incredible] for our characteristic of battle and our family is traced clearly back to the 2nd Century [200 AD] though there is good possibility we went back to 500 BC. This is unlike some of the other so called "celtic" families whose names are often adopted from one or two celtic words or named after something of celtic origin. In this sense, they weren't named by Celts or have any real ties to the Celts but attempt to "fudge" to seem authentic... we were named specifically by Celtic/Gaulish origins.

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    I'm an Irishman, born in Ireland and have lived all my life in Ireland. We don't know anything about either "Black Irish" or "Dark Irish" (in Ireland "Black Irish" means Irish people who are actually Black or of mixed race background -- Ruth Negga for example), as far as we concerned "Black Irish" (as talked about on internet) is as american as using 4 leaf clover on St. Patrick day (hint the three leaves of Shamrock in fairytale is suppose to represent the Holy Trinity) or drinking Green beer.
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    It's definitely a trope that emerged from the "New World". In fact, I only learned of the phrase from materials produced by Euro-Americans (Internet posts, published historical accounts etc.).

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    There is a similar myth about the so-called "Black Dutch". I think I read somewhere those myths were constructed as a cover for otherwise white people with some likely African admixture acquired in North America, like the Melungeons.

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    Even in the States, there isn't any kind of agreement or consensus on what the term means. "Black Irish" is one of those terms that is used so infrequently that many people have never heard it, and it needs to be explained each time it gets used. Just about everyone defines it differently. I've heard it used in all the various ways mentioned above - black hair, dark skin, or mixed race. And its usage often results in a discussion over its definition.
    Last edited by miiser; 10-03-2015 at 06:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miiser View Post
    Even in the States, there isn't any kind of agreement or consensus on what the term means. "Black Irish" is one of those terms that is used so infrequently that many people have never heard it, and it needs to be explained each time it gets used. Just about everyone defines it differently. I've heard it used in all the various ways mentioned above. And its usage often results in a discussion over its definition.
    That's very true. I've heard it applied to people simply because they had dark hair; otherwise, there was nothing particularly "black" about them. In the past, people were pretty loose with descriptors, describing as "black" hair color that really wasn't black but just dark brown.

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    funniest bit of ad hominem direct at me all month. You've made my day

    Though I appreciate the bit of "let's explain to Irishman what actually happens in his country".
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That's very true. I've heard it applied to people simply because they had dark hair; otherwise, there was nothing particularly "black" about them. In the past, people were pretty loose with descriptors, describing as "black" hair color that really wasn't black but just dark brown.
    I've only heard the term passed around as a joke in my ex-husband's family. His family is (non famous) Kennedy; he and his brother had black, very tightly curled hair, dark blue eyes, and an olive tone to their skin. They were more serious about a shape of skull they insisted was the Kennedy head....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    funniest bit of ad hominem direct at me all month. You've made my day

    Though I appreciate the bit of "let's explain to Irishman what actually happens in his country".
    The pity is that no doubt the mods will come along and delete the post you're referring to. It should be left to stand as a monument to . . . well, you know.

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