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Thread: Y-Haplogroup J found in Karelian Eastern Hunter-Gatherer

  1. #1
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    Y-Haplogroup J found in Karelian Eastern Hunter-Gatherer

    It seems that J has been found in one of the EHG samples from Karelia:

    In eastern Europe outside the steppe, a new individual from the Karelia region resembles the two previously published EHG individuals autosomally, but surprisingly belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup J usually associated with Near Eastern populations (Supplementary Data Table 1)
    Not long ago, I recall saying something along the lines of "We simply don't know where J came from, for all I know it could've come from the Pontic-Caspian steppe". Many a true word said in jest, seems reality is slowly catching up with my sense of humour (I know Karelia isn't the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but still, at this rate J1 will be found in a Yamna sample)

    Throw in the fact that J2a was also found in sample I0708 from Barcın Höyük and this becomes even more confusing. We have different samples with radically different autosomal profiles carrying Y-DNA J. Either the association, between specific uniparental lineages and ancient components is inherently flawed or we're simply not seeing the full picture here.

    Either way, this goes on to prove that contemporary data is utterly unreliable... I mean, Karelia looks more serious a contender than the Transcaucasus as J's homeland. Of course, I'm expecting this to change, but one thing's for sure: The J tribe was a pretty mysterious one.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    What subclade of J did the EHG Karelian belong to? The Barcin farmer belonged to J2, so do you think it might be J1 or J2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    What subclade of J did the EHG Karelian belong to? The Barcin farmer belonged to J2, so do you think it might be J1 or J2?
    It's just J*, at least judging by the SNPs (PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291).
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    These two branches of J1 Z1828 are European

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...mU&usp=sharing

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...qI&usp=sharing

    and they don't have any known Anatolian relatives within about 7,600 years, according to http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

    I suppose these could be the oldest European branches of J1. But no ancient samples of J1 have been found.

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    We do not know what type of J was found in Karelia. We can find some pretty basal J1 types in Finland nowadays
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304*/
    If we can find the concentration of modern basal types of J1 (and some J2) around Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran we can observe that area as the dispersion point of the modern distribution. In one summer an individual can move from the Caspian Sea to Karelia if unopposed and of course the basal types of R1 changed from Mal`ta to the modern European phenotypes in contact with Northern Near Eastern DNA.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
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    Rico, what does the abbreviation PJL mean in http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/ ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    Rico, what does the abbreviation PJL mean in http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/ ?
    They are Punjabis from Lahore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    We do not know what type of J was found in Karelia. We can find some pretty basal J1 types in Finland nowadays
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304*/
    If we can find the concentration of modern basal types of J1 (and some J2) around Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran we can observe that area as the dispersion point of the modern distribution. In one summer an individual can move from the Caspian Sea to Karelia if unopposed and of course the basal types of R1 changed from Mal`ta to the modern European phenotypes in contact with Northern Near Eastern DNA.
    J-Y6304 also came to mind, but I kind of doubt it has anything to do with this sample. It's equally likely we're looking at an unsuccessful branch of J which managed to make it into the EHG genepool. J is pretty old after all, old enough for an early branch of J* to make its way northwards prior to the Mesolithic.
    Like I said, we're probably not seeing the full picture here.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    I think this lends to support to the notion that J could very well be a proto-WHG lineage. Perhaps this unsuccessful lineage could have branched off and migrated towards Europe, while Middle Eastern J went in its in own direction. It could have been overrun by more success haplogroup lineages.

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  19. #10
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    Y-DNA Haplogroup J From Mesolithic Karelia

    This truly is quite fascinating. I never expected a Y-DNA haplogroup J sample to show up anywhere in Mesolithic Europe and especially not Karelia of all places! But it has shown up. The recent study entitled ''Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe'' tested the DNA of another Mesolithic individual from the Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov site among many others from various time periods. No subclade is listed for this individual and he is just called ''J''. He may truly belong to J*. There is a good chance that he comes from an extinct line of Y-DNA haplogroup J that migrated to Europe during either the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic and died out. When it comes to autosomal DNA he is very similar to the other EHG (Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers) samples that have been tested so far and his mtDNA haplogroup is U4a. Very interesting stuff!

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...16477.full.pdf

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0

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